龚鹏程&马内拉｜国际历史研究的重点或从美国转移

龚鹏程对话海外学者第一百三十四期：在后现代情境中，被技术统治的人类社会，只有强化交谈、重建沟通伦理，才能获得文化新生的力量。这不是谁的理论，而是每个人都应实践的活动。龚鹏程先生遊走世界，并曾主持过“世界汉学研究中心”。我们会陆续推出“龚鹏程对话海外学者”系列文章，请他对话一些学界有意义的灵魂。范围不局限于汉学，会涉及多种学科。以期深山长谷之水，四面而出。

埃雷兹·马内拉教授（ProfessorErez Manela）

哈佛大学历史学教授。

龚鹏程：您好，我对您的全球史研究非常感兴趣。但无论是研究一次大战后的威尔逊，还是二次大战后的美国与全球南方。您似乎都是以美国为焦点的，或者也可说是“美国在世界上的历史”。这样，会不会引起一些疑惑？

埃雷兹·马内拉：龚教授，您好。是的，我对20世纪国际历史的研究经常以美国在世界上的作用为中心。这反映了我自己对美国在国际事务中所扮演的角色的兴趣，以及美国在20世纪国际历史中无与伦比的重要性。这也反映了美国政府档案的相对开放性（例如，白宫或国务院的文件），这种开放性有利于对其外交政策和全球角色进行历史研究。

尽管如此，我预计在未来几年，许多国际历史研究的重点很可能会从美国转移。这将是近几十年来美国实力和影响力相对下降的一个自然和可能的结果。也许更令人担忧的是，它还可能源于美国政府文件访问量的减少。过去以纸质形式保存的许多文件，在过去25年左右的时间里，已经迁移到了数字格式。这些新的格式很可能使文件的保存和未来历史学家的访问变得更加复杂。

Yes, my research on the international history of the 20th century has often centred the role of the United States in the world. This reflects my own interest in the part the US has played in international affairs as well as the outsize importance of the United States in 20th century international history. It also reflects the relative openness of US government archives (for example, the papers of the White House or the State Department), an openness which facilitates historical research into its foreign policies and global role.

That said, I expect that the emphasis of much international history research may well shift away from the United States in future years. This would be a natural and likely result of the relative decline of US power and influence in recent decades. It may also stem, perhaps more worryingly, from the decline of access to US government documents. So many documents that in the past were preserved in paper form have, in the last 25 years or so, migrated to digital formats. These new formats may well make document preservation and access for future historians more complicated.

龚鹏程：美国在近两百年间的地位，当然全球无与伦比，但全球化或美国化的争论一直很激烈，您的看法是什么？

埃雷兹·马内拉：我同意，在20世纪的大部分时间里，美国文化的影响在世界许多地方都很重要。然而，我认为最好从全球化的角度来思考这个时代，而不仅仅是美国化。这是因为从全球化的角度思考，会让我们注意到非美国的文化和意识形态在世界各地的不同影响。在二十世纪的大部分时间里，来自苏联、中国、古巴等共产主义国家的意识形态的全球影响就是一个明显的例子。其他例子包括来自中东的伊斯兰意识形态的影响。

在文化方面，美国的文化产业（如好莱坞电影或流行音乐）在世界大部分地区都有广泛的影响。然而，近几十年来，来自其他地方的影响已经与之不相伯仲，某些地区甚至超过了美国。

I agree that the influence of American culture has been important in many parts of the world throughout much of the 20th century. Nevertheless, I think it is better to think of that era in terms of globalization rather than simply of Americanization. This is because thinking in terms of globalization draws our attention to the diverse influences that non-American cultures and ideologies have had around the world. The global influence of ideologies emanating from communist states such as the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, for much of the twentieth century is one obvious case. Other examples include the impact of Islamic ideologies coming from the Middle East.

龚鹏程：五十年前世界卫生组织的全球天花根除计划，令人感激。未来这类计划将还有些什么？

埃雷兹·马内拉：对于我们，国际合作解决全球问题有很大的空间，世界卫生组织的天花根除计划就是一个例子。当然，在新冠疫情之后，我们都意识到，疾病控制问题在全球范围内仍然很重要。减少温室气体排放是另一个没有广泛国际合作就无法解决的问题。我们只能希望世界各国领导人和人民有智慧和远见，建立和维持双边和多边的框架，以促进未来的这种合作。

There is a great deal of room in our world for international cooperation to solve global problems, as was exemplified in the WHO’s smallpox eradication program. In the wake of the Covid-19 pandemic, of course, we all realize that Issues of disease control remain important globally. The reduction of greenhouse gas emissions is another problem that cannot be solved without broad international cooperation. One can only hope that world leaders and peoples will have the wisdom and foresight to build and sustain the frameworks, both bilateral and multilateral, that will facilitate such cooperation in the future.

龚鹏程：当年美国人与全球南方的关系，似乎只是从地理关系上看，现在与近东中东的关系，却牵扯种族、宗教与文化。与东北亚、东南亚，问题又跟近东中东各不相同。您认为俄乌战争之后，调整美国人与全球东方的关系，会不会成为新的热点？

埃雷兹·马内拉：在我看来，美国与东亚，特别是与中国的关系，几个世纪以来一直很重要。在我教授的中美关系史课程中，我对我的学生提出的一个观点是，自美国国家诞生以来，与中国的关系对美国人来说一直是至关重要的。毕竟，我问他们，在著名的波士顿倾茶事件中，那引起争议的点燃了美国革命的茶叶是哪里来的？当然，它来自中国。

因此，虽然美国确实在中东有重要的利益，特别是在1970年代石油危机以来的几十年里，但在我看来，美国与亚洲，特别是与中国关系的历史要深得多，而且在未来只会越来越重要。因此，为了回答您的问题，我不仅认为调整与亚洲的关系将是乌克兰战争（我希望很快结束）之后的一个"热门话题"；而且我认为，这种调整事实上已经成为美国外交关系的核心话题，并将在可预见的未来继续占据重要地位。

In my view, the relationship between the United States and East Asia, and particularly with China, has been important for centuries. A point I make to my students in the course I teach on the history Sino-American relations is that the relationship to China has been of central importance to Americans since the very birth of the nation. After all, I ask them, where did the tea come from that was the source of controversy in the famous Boston Tea Party that helped launch the American Revolution? It came, of course, from China!

So, while it is true that the United States has had important interests in the Middle East, particularly in the decades since the oil crises of the 1970s, in my view the history of its relationship with Asia, and especially with China, runs much deeper and will only grow in importance in the future. So, to answer your question, not only do I think that adjusting relations with Asia will be a “hot topic” after the war in Ukraine (which I hope will end very soon). I think that this adjustment has, in fact, been the central topic in US foreign relations for some time now and will continue to occupy a place of importance into the foreseeable future.

龚鹏程，1956年生于台北，台湾师范大学博士，当代著名学者和思想家。著作已出版一百九十多种。

办有大学、出版社、杂志社、书院等，并规划城市建设、主题园区等多处。讲学于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、台北、巴黎、日本、澳门等地举办过书法展。现为美国龚鹏程基金会主席、《龚鹏程国际学刊》出版人。