军旅抒情的审美导向（下篇/ 中英文对照）

【HUMANITY AND ART INTERVIEWS】

AESTHETIC DIRECTION OF MILITARY LYRICISM IN THE LYRIC HISTORY

军旅抒情的审美导向(下篇/中英文对照）

QIAO YAN: MILITARY LYRICISM AS CARRIAR OF POETIC ENGINEERING SCIENCE

HUMANITY AND ART INTERVIEW OF 21ST CENTURY /ISW

Zhang Wenzhe : poet, literary theorist ,compere of ISW, former editor -in chief of Poetry Journal Yellow Liver

Qiao Yan: former deputy director of PLA press, executive chairman of International Pen club For Chinese Poets

峭岩: 军旅抒情作为诗学工程学的载体

【21世纪人文艺术访谈/ISW】

■章闻哲：诗人、文论家、《导言选摘》主持人，《黄河诗报》前主编

■峭 岩：原解放军出版社副社长、国际华文诗人笔会常务主席

Zhang Wenzhe: I think poets need to open a certain space-time that make him linked up with historic person or heroes, the poetic object and subject would still be in the state of isolation and alienation, if haven’t got this peculiarity. So a poem’s achievement may be built on the basis of the unity of the subject and object, and be the combination by crashing between the history and time, this combination always brings younger poetic scenery and new thoughts sight to us. At present, China is undergoing the great revitalization , in our diplomacy businesses, we generally use the word” juvenilization” to describe this renaissance——can we deem that there is a juvenilization in writer’s creation necessarily, or there must exist this “juvenilized movement of thoughts and spirit stimulated by creations itself？How to define this form of “juvenilization” in personal creation?

■章闻哲:我想，诗人需要在某个特殊物体上，打开某种与历史人物或英雄人物之间的时空衔接，没有这种独特性，诗歌客体与主体就还是在一种疏离的、隔膜的状态中。所以成功的诗作可能就是主客体的高度统一，而且是历史客体与时代的一种碰撞式的化合。这种化合往往带来的是一种年轻化的诗歌景观与新的思想景观。当前，中国正在经历伟大复兴，在外文中，一般以“年轻化”来形容这种“复兴”，——可否认为，在作家的创作中，也必然存在着一种“年轻化”的创作，或者有着这种通过创作本身来激发思想与精神的“年轻化”运动？怎么定义个体创作中的“年轻化”形态？

Qiaoyan: the fact proved that a country, a person, can be described with “juvenilization”. it is to say that , they just recovered a certain energy by depending on a revolution , a resort, and changed the outlook, restarted a new path.

The juvenilization of China, is the rewriting of the Chinese history of a few thousand years, so as it be young naturally, symbols the start of another history. Writers have naturally a stage of juvenilization, or “puberty”. it’s none of age’s business, but relate to the creation contents and mentality.

When we say somebody becomes young, it refers to the distinguish between the work and age, also it is a certain recognition.

To say writers and poets, its important to keep young mentality. Li Yin said ever: the poet is the kid that find beauty in idealism. Kids themselves are young naturally. To me, to keep a poetic heart, keep the mentality of police for poem, use the eyes of poem, power of poem to arm myself, is my all assignment. When a person correct his mentality, review the time that he lived in, be kind to peoples around , remind himself constantly, his poet therefore can be surely young. As the proverb goes, the secret of which “the outlook originates from the heart” is here.

■峭 岩：事实证明一个国家、一个人，是可以用“年轻化”来注释的。是说他们依附一场革命，一个手段，复兴了某种能量，更换面貌，重新开启了一个新途径。

中国的伟大复兴，是重写了中国的几千年历史，一个新的更高的起点开始了，自然“年轻”了。象征另一个历史的开始。作家自然也有一个“年轻化”的阶段，或叫“青春期”。它与年龄无关，与心态和创作内容密切相关。

我们说，某某年轻了，是指其年龄与作品的反差，也是对作者作品的一种肯定。

就作家诗人而言， 保持年轻的心态至关重要 。李瑛曾说 ；“诗人，是在现实和理想中寻找美的孩子。”孩子本身是青春的。于我而言，保持一颗诗心，保持诗的警察精神，用诗的目光、诗的力量武装自己，是我全部的功课。当一个人摆正心态，反观身处的这个时代，善待身边的人和事，不断地提纯自己， 他的诗歌一定是青春的。俗话说，“相由心生”的秘密就在于此。

ZWZ: I think that the manner of creation is also changed by stimulus of technology. For example, at present day of vision media, vision has been a more favorite readings, so, how can the literalness to face such varies, especially for the poem? The work of usually being recited as a work of audio frequency, what is the limit of it?

■章闻哲:我觉得创作方式也在受到外部技术的刺激而发生变化。比如，在当前视媒体时代，影像变成更受欢迎的“读物”，那么文字，尤其是诗歌，该如何面对这种变化？朗诵作品作为一种结合视觉的声频作品，有什么局限？

Qiaoyan: In our era of We-Media, to lead people’s eyes to the more broad realm, give poetry a more wide space, what a good idea! Poems walk down from paper, no more the soundless reading, rather it find its broader market when allies with the reciting. I have a deep apperception of it, my long poems The Whinnying Of The Zebra; Kneeling Down Before You For One Thousand; July! July! and so on , have been all recited in the cloud and the space offline, there were massive readers or audiences with number from hundreds of thousands of to tens of millions of. July !July! During the CPC construction centenary anniversary, the recitation divided into six parts, in every part, there were hundreds of people online to listen in, later the video of recitation be transferred , and reached its best effects of echo.

In social realm, poetic recitation be used widely, it’s no doubt that when people broadcast poems, they make the seeds of poem sowed everywhere.enlarged the impact of poem, it can’t be underestimated of its influence unconsciously. This is also the bright path from anti-popularization to popularization.

The We-Media is only one aspect . if we utilize the image measure, put the poem of which is rich in plots onto such stage of video, or film it into the poetic film, short poetic play, it deserve to be expected. As regards this aspect, the poetry plenary session of China broadcast by the CCTV, is a good way to transit the Chinese classical poetry. The ancient poem that we just think it is far away from us today, came back in one night to publicize widely, this bunch of light of poem, exists still , deeply too in everyone’s heart.

Another form that born at the right moment is the Spring Festival Evening of poetry, its broad, rich, massive,originality, caused responds of storm like on the wide ground.

the spring festival evening of poem is a good form, however, it is the passion of folk, it hasn’t got its support from the national system, how can it go further by only a few persons’ passion leading the folk?

■峭 岩：自媒体时代 ，把人们的目光引向更广阔的领域 ，给诗歌找到了一个更广阔的空间 ，多么好啊 ！诗歌从纸上走下来 ，不再是无声的阅读 ，尤其是与朗诵结缘找到了更广阔的市场。关于这件事我有深深的感悟 ，我的长詩《萧萧班马鸣》、《跪你一千年》、《七月！七月！》等长诗，都曾在云中、场下朗诵 ，受众千万、几十万，上百万都是有的。《七月！七月！》在建党百年期间先后分6场朗诵 ，每次都有几百人线上收听，事后又转发视频，效果出奇得好。

在社会上，诗朗诵这一形式广泛采用 ，无疑，在推广诗歌的同时，也让诗歌的种子广播四方，扩大了诗歌的影响力 ，这种潜移默化的作用不可小视 。这也是诗歌小众化，走向大众化的一条光明之路。

我说的是自媒体的一个方面 。如果利用影像手段，把富有情节的诗歌搬上视频舞台，拍成诗电影、诗短剧，是一个美好的期待。这方面，央视播出的中国诗词大会，对传播中国古典优秀诗词是一个非常好的举措 。我们认为走远了的古代诗词，就在一夜之间广告天下 ，这束诗词的光芒依然存在，而且深入人心 。 应运而生的中国诗歌春晚 ，它的广泛性、丰富性、群众性 、 独创性 ，在广袤的大地上，引起狂飙式的反响 。

中国诗歌春晚 ，虽然是一个好的形式 ，可惜的是，它是民间的热情，它没有国家体制资金的支撑 ，靠几个人的热情携带民间的热情 ，不知能走多远 ？

ZWZ: as regard the passion of folk as you said, I have seen a lot of folk group of poem, they are just as you have estimated, without being a group of “constantly illuminating”. so ,under your sparkle estimation, I still recognize that it is reasonable. Maybe its the reflection of poem as such under the national situation. Its may still be controversial. Let us just ask in another word——how to promote the creation passion of poem of our time.

■章闻哲：您说到“民间热情”，我曾经见过好多民间诗歌团体，他们确实如您所说的，没有成为一种“持续发光”的团体。所以，在您的这种尖锐的评价下，我依然认为这是有一定道理的。也许这也是国情下的诗歌情怀本身之体现。指出这种现实，或许依然是有争议的。那我们换一个方式问好了——怎么促进时代集体的诗歌创作激情？

Qiaoyan: There are varieties of manners for improving the poetry, publishing, comments and rewards, these measure going in our era, some from nation, some initiated by a group, some are from folk. Because of its disparity in origins of momentum, there are different criteria, and variety of problems. How to make these measure to be accepted by the mass, make the measures exert its effects of safeguarding fair, justice, paradigm?---- we still need to try our best.

Having since been peripherized for a long time of poetry. It was paid a great attention to by nation ,including the authorities. It’s impossible , or rather unpractical to make the poem go into the centre of public opinions. The poem only possessed a corner of literature, its enough to possess a tiny place in public spirit life. So to say the corrective creation of nowadays integrally, we can’t do the poem under one order, when the poem principles have not yet been the law of nation. We only can take out excellent poems to call for broad masses of poets, there is no other way except creating poems without betraying the age.

■峭 岩：促进诗歌的繁荣，手段是多样的 ，发表，出版、评奖 ，这些手段依然进行着，有的是国家的，有的是团体的，有的是民间的 。由于动力来源不一样，审美标准不一样，就出现了这样那样的问题。如何使这些手段得到大众的认可 ，使手段发挥公平、正义、典范的作用，还需要做更大的努力 。

诗歌的边缘化 ，由来已久。国家包括权力部门一直是重视的 ，让诗歌走进舆论的中央也不可能 ，更不切合实际。诗歌只是文学的一个角落，在大众的心目中占有一席之地就可以了 。所谓时代集体的诗歌创作，就整体而言，在诗歌没有进入法律文本的时候 ，很难做到统一号令 。我们只能拿出优秀的诗歌号召广大诗人 ，写作不愧时代的诗歌，别无他法。

ZWZ: How do you think of the politic lyricism ,should it have a form that distinguished from the past ,or from the initial stage literature tradition of national construction of socialism? Of course, we all know, the political lyricism need to be generated by politic environment, how do you think about the present politic form? In what environment can it be cultivated? We have found that , in aspect of film and television art, there is no less than large quantities of politic lyricism works , is it an certain prompt given to the poetic creation?

■章闻哲:您觉得，在当前时代，政治抒情应不应该有一个区别于以往时代，或区别于无产阶级与社会主义初期文学传统的新形式？当然，我们都知道，政治抒情需要政治环境的催生，您觉得，当前的环境会培育出何种政治抒情形式？在影视艺术方面，我们发现，政治抒情量不仅不少，而且极多，那么这是否给了诗歌创作以某种提示？

Qiaoyan: poem is clothes of a time, a poem of whatever it is can only generated from its own age. Today is a new brand time of never been, the expression form of initial stage of socialistic nation naturally will be changed or evolved, to be a form of which is popular in contemporaries, is inevitable in history. I am always thinking that , the politic is the idea of a time, a society, a nation, but poem can not be reproduced, it is not a megaphone of the politic. The poem is living through its unique poses, meanings, languages, and echos.

But we shouldn’t deny the achievement of poems during the initial stage of socialistic nation, the politic lyrics wrote by Guo Xiaocuan and He Jingzhi is the products of that time, its reasonable for having their colour of that age. Their poems not only have politic height, but also have their skills of poetic technology. Poem should change when there is a significant reform with society, this is just the necessity of history.

We should admit that ,our country have been great changed, we can’t be too conservative, we have to face the globalization from life to culture, from consciousness to aesthetics, no more stand on the origin place, but progress to the more broad space. Poem should has its new attitude to follow up the great social(time), to effect on the era. The poetic passion of what you have said is on this sense too.

■峭 岩：诗歌是一个时代的衣裳，什么时代就产生什么样的诗歌 。今天是一个旷古以来的斩新时代 ，社会主义初期的表达形式自然会被改变或演进，蜕变成当代人喜闻乐见的形式 ，是历史的必然 。我一直认为 ，政治是一个国家、一个社会、一个时代的理念，政治催生诗歌 ，但诗歌不能复制政治 ，它不是政治的传声筒。诗歌是通过它独有的体势、意向、语言，反馈生活的。

但不应否认社会主义初期所取得的诗歌成就 ， 郭晓川、贺敬之的政治抒情诗是那个时代的产物 ，带有那个时代的政治色彩是合理的 。他们的诗不仅有政治高度，更可贵的是有着诗歌技艺的技巧。当社会发生了重大变革的时候， 诗歌应当改变 ，这也是历史的必然 。

应当承认，我们的国家发生了翻天覆地的变化，由于开放我们不能固守一方，还有面对全球一体化 ，从生活到文化 ，从意识到审美，都不再原地踏步，朝着更宽广的空间突进。诗歌要有一个新的姿态跟进大社会的脚步 ，而有所作为。你所说的时代共同的诗歌激情也在于此。

ZWZ: when poem want to effect on era, or in other words, to effect on” the renaissance of the nation”, it has no other ideas except “politic lyricism”, right?

■章闻哲：当诗歌要有所作为时，或者说要对“民族复兴”有所作为时，不外乎要“政治抒情”了，不是吗？

Qiaoyan: The renaissance of nation, first of all , is the renaissance of culture( but not politic resilience). To this problem, there is a pose has been showed on the country level. Which means to rectify the artists, clear the videos, correct and clean the originality, supporting the justice and eliminating the evil, have got a good result. It objectively made a solid foundation for the great poems. Poets must be awake, not to follow the trends with crowds, but to keep distance from the hot point of press to maintain independent. The politic lyric is the visualization of the idealism, dealing with the sublimation of beauty and kindness, but not the entanglements and iconography. It deserve to be expected for the poem’s fortune.

I have ever said, its the other passage that the poem’s birth, this passage is full of imagination and freedom with fresh and rare quality. It is stripped of the conceptualization, journalistic,and routinization, use the artistic conception,image,language to complete its mission. Poet construct his own style, language system, forms his unique individual style. Cassirer( Deutsch philosopher) had said: the exclusive topic admitted by the the true poetic form is the mystical things, marvelous things, unthinkable things . he also said,that , “the most great achievement and privilege of the art , is its relation with ordinary things are burned away by itself. The art must be a certain mystery of which scared by the mortal men and vulgar persons.” Namely , the poet need to complete the systematic projects of philosophy and sacredness, it is the same as Nietzsche said, “poets are all philosophers.”

Of course, the politic lyrics under present system, have a another potential, namely its practicality on the stage, for encouragement and propaganda, some drastic and realistic incidental works, works more political than artistic, are usually to be seen, but our discussion only concerns works which are qualified by essence of poetry.

■峭 岩： 民族复兴 ，首先是文化复兴（不是政治复兴） 。在这个问题上，国家层面已经做出了姿态。整顿艺人 ，清理视频 ，正本清源 ，扶正怯邪 ，已经有了好的迹象。客观上为产生大诗歌奠定了基础。诗人要清醒，不能奏热闹，要远离新闻热点而独立，政治抒情是理想的形象化，向美向善的升华处理，而不是纠缠和图解。诗歌的未来可期。

我曾说，诗歌的诞生走另一种“通道”，这个“通道”是充满想象与新奇的自由之路。它与概念化、新闻化、常规化剥离，用意境、意象、语言完成它的使命。诗人建立自己的表达、语言系统，形成独一无二的个性风格。卡西尔〔德国哲学家〕说：“令人惊叹的东西，不可思议的东西，神秘的东西，才是真正诗歌形式所承认的唯一题材。”他还说：“艺术的最大功绩和特权，就在于它烧毁了与平庸的实在联系的所有桥梁。艺术必须是凡夫俗子望而生畏的一种神秘。”这就是说，诗人要完成是一种哲学加神性的系统工程。这也是尼采说的，诗人都是哲学家的意思。

当然，政治抒情诗在当前的体制下，还有一种可能而存在，即台面上的实用性，为了鼓舞和宣传，一些激昂的、现实的即兴作，政治大于艺术的作品，也是常有的。但我们讨论的是本质意义上的诗人的作品而已。

ZWZ: according to what Cassirer said, “to be amazing!”-----what poem may make you surprised? Or impress you deeply? Or impact you with brand new language? Can you give an example?

■章闻哲:依照卡西尔的说法，“令人惊叹”——那么什么诗歌会让您惊叹？或给您以深刻的印象，或者给您以全新的语言冲击力？能否举例？

PICTURE SHEARED：Qiaoyan--“My day"for meeting friends in golden autumn

Qiaoyan: Poem is the presentation of life and language, one poem of certain style is corresponding to the personality of one who is the author of the poem.I like poems which are ethereal, forthright and sincere,simple, newly in image, and with language quality. All of these characters therefore formed the magnetism, it will infect you, grasp your eyes, and then your heart, make you can’t cease to read it.

For example, the sophisticated poet Li Ying ever wrote a poem titled with A Horseshoe, its so profound and unexpected from the topic’s election to building the context, from the style to the language, make reader impressed by the power of which unforgettable. He said that , a horseshoe hanging on the wall/ a horseshoe that becomes thin and rusty by grinding, hanging in my schoolroom/like being wrapped by the rain and between the disorder mountains of south China/ long road of two thousand li hanging there/history hanging there/ maybe it is a bone of my horse/ maybe it is a bone of a time/ I see my white horse as soon as I see it/ with flying long horse hair and four hoofs struggling to rise / that is the time of which should be pretended by the tree branches and grass foliage/ only blood/ only the strong and hard hoof and horseshoe/ being so true in the life/ but now, the hoofbeat goes far away with clattering/ in every midnight/ it remind it of uneven road between mountains/ make it pant/ recall the river ever wade through with flame light reflected red/and be excited/ think of the thunder of guns and shots/ dashed forward at once / to find the motherland/ at the place with no way. Its really naturally for the poet to imaged such plot from a horseshoe, and “to find the motherland”even more astonishing , lit the topic incidentally, so to say, the displaying before put the sensibility onto the summit, got a profound and deepest meaning.

The poems of Naye, always attracted me by its independent and ego-reaction. Her poem Life has its broad and concentration featured in “seeing big from the small”.She said that , “life, I loved you ever/ like in childhood loving a black candy drop/ make a lick of it/ wrap it at once in a candy paper/ lick it / lick it slower and slower/ wrap it faster and faster/ and now left only my candy and me/ I must restrain/ from being sadness. A black candy, is here to assimilate with the diversity , complexity, and mindset of life as such, “I must restrain, being sadness” is the note of life, also is the remind.

Please look at this poem Smelting The Iron: “that year, LuDao and his master learn to smelt the iron/ it is just burn the days to be like the red-hot iron/ one hammer with one trail/ one hammer with one trauma/ is that shooting star the dream with multiple arris?/walking through the flesh/ the master said smelting the iron is smelting youself/ I like the sound of smelting/ I like the light of the sun/ covers our earthy life/the great desert, rivers/the dusk,and the upcoming poem for quenching/the master said that / to smelt the iron is to smelt the bone of history/ Ji Kang was very concentrating/ he keep smelting all over the life in country Qiao/ that man who like the pig iron/ unexpectedly smelted the tail of Three Nation into a poem/ thence no more the Prelude Of Guang Ling/ the master said / smelting the iron can put one to death.

This is the poem from poet Ludao, his very publicly poem, his sharp and penetrating of language, have been attended by the poetry circles.

A White Hair(author: Ci Le Cuan) is also my favorite poem, a white hair dropped on the desk/ like a passage of time which is indispensable/ be attended or be ignored/ are both of no significant/ a white hair finally find itself/ like the fate find the fortune/ like the human find the life/ a white hair always sigh/ like a strand of tied sunshine,/ can it lie down for a while in silence now/ and then to say with timidity/I use all over my life / let the dark of body/ ultimately go to the end”

Such poem makes us being awake, can give us more valuable things.

■峭 岩：诗歌是生命与语言的呈现，有什么人格就有什么样的诗歌。我喜欢空灵的、率真的、简洁的、意象新颖的，有语言含量的诗歌。由此形成的磁性，会感染你，抓住你的眼睛，然后抓住你的心，欲罢不能。

比如老诗人李瑛的《一只马蹄铁》，从选题到造境、从体式到语言，是那么深刻而出其不意，有读后不忘的力量。他说：“一只马蹄铁悬挂在墙上/一只磨薄的生锈的马蹄铁/静静地挂在我的书房里/犹如被雨水裹着的中国南方乱山间的/两千里长路悬挂在那儿/历史悬挂在那儿/也许它是我的马的一块骨头/也许它是时代的一块骨头/看见它便看见我那匹白色马/飞扬的长鬃和奋起的四蹄/那是需要树枝和草叶伪装的年代/只有血/只有坚硬的蹄钉和铁掌/在生活里多么真实/而今，哒哒哒的蹄声远去了/但每当夜半/它想起崎岖的山路/便会喘息/想起蹚过火光映红的河水/便会激动/想起枪声和炮声/便会嘶鸣着向前冲去/在没有路的地方/寻找祖国 。”诗人从一只马蹄铁联想到的情节确实可信，自然贴切。而“寻找祖国 ”一语惊人，刹那间把主题点亮，可以说前面的铺陈，最后把情感推上高峰，意蕴悠远而深邃。

娜夜的诗歌，一直以独立的、自我的思考吸引我。她的《生活》有小中见大的开阔与浓缩性。她说：“生活，我珍爱过你/像小时候珍爱一颗黑糖球/舔一口/马上用糖纸包上/舔一口/舔得越来越慢/包得越来越快/现在只剩下我和糖纸了/我必须忍住/忧伤。” 一块黑糖果，比喻生活的多样性、复杂性、心态性，落笔“我必须忍住，忧伤 ”是对生活的注释，也是提醒 。

请看《打铁》这首诗：“那一年绿岛和师傅学打铁/就是把日子烧得通红/一锤一道痕迹/一锤一记伤口/那飞溅的流星是多棱的梦吗 ？/在肉体中穿行/师傅说打铁就是在打自己/我喜欢打铁的声音/像太阳的光芒/覆盖我们朴实的生命/ 大漠，河流/黄昏以及即将淬火的诗歌/师傅说/打铁就是锻打历史的骨头/嵇康很专注/一生都是那个样子/他在谯国打铁/那个像生铁一样孤傲的汉子/竟然把三国的尾巴打进一首歌谣/从此,人世间再无广陵散/师傅说/打铁可以打出人命。”

这是诗人绿岛的诗，他诗歌的高蹈性，语言的犀利性、穿透性，一直被诗坛所关注。

《一根白发 》〔作者：敕勒川〕我也很喜欢这首诗 。“一根白发落在桌子上/像是一段可有可无的时光/被人注意或者忽略/都已经不重要了/一根白发终于找到了自己/像命找到了命运/像人找到了人生/一根白发常舒了一口气/仿佛一缕累坏了的阳光/可以安安静静地躺一躺了/然后，怯生生地说/我用一生/终于把身体里的黑暗//走完了。”

这样的诗可以让人醒悟，可以给我们输送更多的东西 。

ZWZ: In my point of view, Li Yin is a poet of more “material image” than “politic image” comparing with his contemporary, in other words, his consciousness of detail” more than his cognition of attraction. To say Ludao, there is something that is bursting with passion in his manner of critics, it is where his estimable being, therefore his poems is also full with the passion like his critics. To say the poems of Naye, there is a certain feature of sweet and fragrant that brought by women, including women’s dysphoric, craftiness,and persistence and sincere to life-----all of these poets are proficient, could you please talk about that who is your favorite young poets?

■章闻哲：在我看来，李瑛较之他的同时代诗人是“物质意象”胜过“政治意象”的诗者，换言之，他的具象意识胜过抽象意识。而绿岛的评论方式里包含着一种激情澎湃的东西，这是他的可贵之处，因此他的诗歌也像的他的评论那样，充满激情。娜夜的诗，很有女性带来的一种芬芳甜蜜的属性，包括女性的焦虑、狡黠与对生活的执着、诚恳——这些都是老诗人了，可否谈谈您最喜欢的青年诗人有哪些 ？

Qiaoyan: when enter into the new stage of history, the brand new life, and expectation for fortune, encouraged greatly a batch of young poets ,they grew in the sunshine and spring wind, they have vitality from youth itself, even be sensible and clever to poem, they are the vivifying force.

My place of writing is in the military service, of course, in my visionary ,more attentions that I have ever paid is to the young poets in army life than to local young poets, I only know few of their name. In recent one or two decades, there are such poets that impacted us much and being active in the military poetry circle: Wang Jiuxin, Cao Yuxiang, Guo Xiaohua, Li Ziguo, Ma Xiaoxiao, Kangqiao, Zhao Qiong, they are about 60 years old maybe. Relative to them, more youthful group is : Liu Xiaowei, Duixue, Pen Liuping, Zang Sijia, Ai Kou, Wang Fangfang, Dong Qinyue. These young poets with mentality of military life, are supporting the sky of military poetry with their hot blood and piety.

Just to give two examples here, one is the Kunlun wrote by Liu Xiaowei: always being wait for a poem to descent/ with the purling stream/ pulled the alarm of mountain/ wild birds lit the smoke of great desert/ ice being the heart/ melting rock being the heart also/ even the rock got its quality and temperature of muscles/ raise a faith/ to the power above the sky and sun” ----the style of soldiers on the Kunlun mountains are completely presented with unswerving determination like the solid and soaring column.

Peng Liuping is a more younger poet, his poem inherited the gene of military poetry, presented the very heroic nature. Bullets Out Of The Chamber wrote: throat of the horn roaring/growling growling growling as it phonated/ like the long tune pulled up by the tenorist/ I was pressed into a chamber/ by the big hand of war/ with velocity like lightning/ I can tell you that I / am a bullet/ a bullet that pretend to fall asleep/ ready to launch out of the chamber at all time/with gunpowder armed foot/firing pin need only a slight click /the fire in the body will inflated at once/ to bite the air like the meteors/ the sky and ground are then split into the two parts/ the brilliant track of the bullet/ tell the world/ I completed / a flicker that can only emerge for one time in my life.

Such young poets, are predicting the future of our national poetry.

■峭 岩：进入新的历史时期，崭新的生活，未来的期待，极大的鼓舞了一批青年诗人 ，他们在阳光下长大，在春风里成长，这批青年诗人有青春的朝气，更有诗歌的敏锐和聪慧 ，他们是新时代的诗歌生力军。

我身在军旅，当然，我的视野里对军旅的青年诗人，有更多的关注。而对地方的青年诗人，也只能说出他们少数的名字。这一二十年，在军旅诗坛活跃的、有影响的是这些人 ：王久幸、曹宇翔、郭晓哗、李自国、马萧萧 、康桥 、赵琼，他们可能在60岁左右。更年轻的有：刘笑伟、堆雪、彭流萍、臧思佳 、艾蔻、王方方、董庆月 。这些青年军旅诗人，以自己的热血衷肠，支撑起军旅诗的一片天空。

不妨举两个例子，一是刘笑伟的《昆仑》：“一直在等待一首诗的降临/溪流潺潺/拉响了高山/野鸟点燃了大漠孤烟 /内心是冰/也是熔岩/是冻僵的火/是火中的战栗/肌肉会像岩石/岩石也会有肌肉的质感与体温/把一种信念/托举到天空和太阳之上的力量。”昆仑山上的士兵风采，尽在诗行中坚挺如柱。

彭流萍是一位更年轻一点的诗人，他的诗歌传承军旅诗的血脉，展示了别样的豪迈。《出膛的子弹 》：“号角的喉咙发出轰鸣/嗡嗡嗡作响/像男高音拔起的长调 /我被战争这只大手/以闪电般的速度压入枪膛/告诉你吧我/是一粒子弹/一粒假装睡着的子弹 /时刻准备出膛/脚底灌满火药 /击针只需轻轻地“哒”一声/体内的火焰就瞬间膨胀 /撕咬空气像流星一样/天与地划开两半/耀眼的弹迹/告诉这个世界/我完成了/一生只有一次的闪光。”

这样的一些青年诗人，预示着中国诗歌的未来。

ZWZ: Those military young poets who have been mentioned by you, are young to you, but to me, they are also “old poets”, the old predecessor. However, in you narration, I still can grasp their vividness, this vividness maybe exuded by the poem as such.

Let’s continue the topic of political lyricism, every generation of politic lyricism poet has their special task in times, could you please explain to the reader of this task of generation from your respective? Whether or not there is a conflict between the task of era and the essence of poem?

■章闻哲: 您所提到的这些“军旅青年诗人”，在您这里是“青年的”，在我这里，也算是老诗人，老前辈了！但在您的叙述中，我依然可以领会到他们年轻的朝气，这种朝气也许就是诗歌本身所散发的。

继续谈政治抒情这个话题，说到政治抒情诗，每一代政治抒情诗人可能都有着他们特殊的时代任务，能否从您的角度，给读者讲解一下，每一代的任务？您认为，时代任务与诗歌本质之间有没有冲突？

Qiaoyan: we have talked of some conception of political lyric poem above, admittedly, one poem has its own background of time, just like the snow in the winter, fish only can live in the water.

It need described as reciprocity between the task of the time and the essence of the poem, poem as a unique artistic tactic, when poem reflect the time, it need to keep its exclusive feature . if poem always be catering to or following up the public, it may lost its quality . Good poem should leap out , to stand high to inspect the meaning of the time, and use wisdom of poem to estimate the time, this is called the task of poem.

■峭 岩：前面已经谈到了关于政治抒情诗的一些概念 ，就一部一首政治抒情诗的产生，故然有他的时代背景，就像雪产生在冬天里一样，鱼也只能在水里生长 。

时代任务与诗歌本质是互动的关系 ，诗歌作为独立的艺术手段 ，诗歌反映这个时代时，保留自己的独立品格才行。如果诗歌对它身处的时代，一味的迎合、紧跟也可能丧失诗歌的本质 。优秀的诗歌应该跳出来，站在高处审视这个时代的意义 ，又以诗歌的智慧对这个时代加以评判，这才是诗歌的任务。

ZWZ: you are always underscoring the independence of the poem, to me , this could be a certain internal ideology in literature. But as far as your opinion is concerned, it may also let the reader to understand your works including the long poems that included the theme of history. So ,we also can take the creation itself as reflection of flexible of “body in as soon as body out”.

Good, let me just leave this topic, to cast a glance at the other kind of scenery---- you’ve ever been to Deutsch, and France as a visiting poet, which foreign poets impress you deeper , or were there any potential ----they had ever impacted you by a certain manner?

■章闻哲：您一直强调诗歌的独立性，在我看来，这可能也是一种文学自身内部的“意识形态”。不过，您的这个意见，也可能让读者得以了解到您创作包含历史题材的长诗，对于这个观念或概念本身的注解。因此，也可以将这种创作本身理解为“身在其中，又跳出其外”的灵活性的体现。

好，让我们离开这个话题，将眼光投放到另一种景象中去——您曾去德国、法国等地做过访问诗人，哪些外国诗人，给你较深的印象，或者有没有这种可能——他们曾给过你某种影响？.

Qiaoyan: To say one of my experiences, it got too ridiculous, to my way of thinking, some poems of west are also popular there, crammed their romantic and colorful life , may full of poetic romantic . however, it’s not the facts. For example, before I went to the France, I did ready enough, let the English translator of my unit translate a few poems, for reciting and communication there. But out of my expectation, I hadn’t met a man who can understand me, there is less place in journals there for poem either. Poem be hided deeply there, it’s difficult to hear the voice of poem in public and markets. Except you point out that poet by speak out his name precisely.

Of course , we have chance to communicate with the foreign poets, in Netherlands, Italy, Vietnam,Laos, we had touched each other face to face. Those are fragments that we had ever comprehended for the obstacles of language, of diversity of national situations. In summary, the foreign poets have their different feature of realms, have their own view of value, life, and aesthetics, they scarcely talk about politics, but only to care about the feeling of art. This is a little bit of different from us, it may the main reason of why the foreign poems generally being too egoistic.

■峭 岩：说起这一段经历很可笑 ，我以为，西方一些国家的诗歌在那里也很普遍，挤满他们浪漫多彩的生活里，一定充满诗意的浪漫。其实，满不是那回事儿 。比如去法国之前 ，我做了充分的准备 ，让我单位的英语译者翻译了好几首诗歌，准备在那里朗诵或者交流。可是 ，令我灰心的是没有遇到一个懂我的人 ，那里的报纸杂志也很少有诗歌的地位。诗歌在那里藏得很深，在大庭广众之下，在市面上很难有诗歌的声音。除非你指名找那里的某个诗人。

当然也有机会和外国诗人交流 ，在荷兰，在意大利，在越南，在老挝都有正面接触，由于语言不通、国情不同，了解到的东西很不成块，零零星星 。总的感觉，外国诗人有他们的地域性，有他们的价值观、人生观、审美观 ，他们几乎不问政治 ，只顾及自己的艺术感觉 。似乎这一点和我们大不一样 。这也是外国诗歌普遍存在的过于自我的主要原因。

ZWZ: It really be a certain circumstance which is depressed.our contemporary poems , may lacked of a certain effective medium, e.g: good translators which aware of poems well. Relatively speaking, we understand more of the west poems , and being more aware of the west literature. From an obviously level, there is far less passions from west countries than from China for translation foreign cultures. As a sophisticated poet, could you please talk about the west poetry of which you have been aware?

■章闻哲：这确实是一种令人沮丧的境遇。我们的当代诗歌，可能缺少一种有效的媒介，比如说懂诗歌的好翻译。相对来说，我认为，中国更理解西方诗歌，更理解西方文学。从某种显而易见的层面来说，在西方，对于译介中国文学的热情，远没有中国本身对西方的译介来得热烈。作为老诗人，谈谈您对西方诗歌的理解吧。

Qiaoyan: there had been less and less works of native poets ever be translated in China, until the opening-up time came. Even the works of poet like me, have chances to be translated. Compilations Of Famous Poets Of Contemporary compiled by Fu Tianhong published by Ying He press of Hong Kong( two languages with English contrasted to Chinese), nearly hundreds of poet’s works are corrected in the collection, my work Short Poems Of Qiaoyan was also selected. And Poetic System Of China published by YiKe press of Singapore, edited by Chen Yan, translated by Qi Fengyan, selected my poems too. My comprehension of west poems added to such texts which as a leading, I suggest that , there are factors more humanistic and philosophic in the west poetry, to me ,it’s rather a huge simulation, e.g: The Wasteland of Whitman, it is poetic in sense of its title, it’s not Green Plain, not the Plateau, but Wasteland. The poet take the wilderness as the symbol of civilization during post-war, he implied us, the wasteland which underwent the war and the relic of the war, need green to renew it, need new sunshine to vitalize it. However the reality is full of desires which be in low class and vulgar. But the poet is the height of the society, the height of the civilization of human, planted a wide range of spring sunshine and nice future with poems on the wasteland through exposing and critics. The poet said that , the thunder of spring is re-echoed in the distance beyond the mountain. “ black clouds in the distance, concentrated on the mountain XimaWante, “with lightning flicked , and then a humid wind brings the rain. This is a passion and hope for the future, for the recovering of the life, for resilient mentality , for spring coming back to the ground.

Award- winner of Nobel 2022, the America poet Louis. Gericke, is a writer won for “taking a another way which hasn’t been taken by any other people.the panel of judges, commented her works as follow: the homeliness of her poems’ beauty built by the accurate language of poem, made individuals obtained their generality. To say that ,Gericke’s poem are featured by coming back to the classical style, studying the ancient Greek, she is always rewriting the myth from Greek and Rome, to absorb inspirations in the totem of classical and myth. She cared for life situation more of low classes, and their birth and death, and individual value. It’s of great different from what we have always paid attention to.

In contrast, the philosophic , sacred and the homeliness of language, and personal feeling of the west poem, all deserve to be learned by us.

■峭 岩：中国翻译本国作家、诗人的作品，开放前少之又少。开放后逐渐多了起来。连我这样的诗人，都有机会翻译成英文出版。香港银河出版社傅天虹主编的《中国当代诗名家集萃》〔英汉语对照〕，出版了近几百位诗人的作品，其中编选了我的《峭岩短诗选 》。由陈岩主编、齐凤艳翻译、新加坡亿科出版社出版的《中国诗系》，入选了我的《峭岩诗选》。也算过了把外文出版的隐。

关于外国诗歌的影响 ，就我的了解和阅读中 ，西方诗歌的哲学性 ，抑或人性的东西比较强烈 ，于我是一个不小的触动 。比如惠特曼的《荒原》，它的题目就很诗意化，不是“绿原”，也不是“高原”，而是“荒原 ”。诗人以荒原象征战后的欧洲文明 ，他暗示给我们 ，这块历经战争的土地需要绿色的栽培 ，需要新的光明的生气。而现实则充满了庸俗和低级的欲望 ，诗人正是在这样一个社会的高度，人类文明的高度，通过揭露和批判 ，在荒原的这片凄凉的土地上， 用诗歌在荒原的大地上，栽植了一片春光和美好的未来。诗人说：“春雷在遥远的山那边回荡”“乌云在远方，在喜马万特山聚集”，“电光一闪 ，然后一阵潮湿的风带来了雨 ”。这是对未来，对生命复苏，精神复活，以及春回大地，寄予了热情和希望 。

2020年诺贝尔文学奖获得者、美国诗人露易丝．格丽克，是“剑走偏锋”，评委评价她“精准的诗歌语言所营造的朴素之美，让个体的存在获得普遍性。”格丽克主要是回到古典，研究古希腊，她经常改写希腊和罗马的神活，从神话和古典图案中汲取灵感。她更多的关注了低层生活状态，出生与死亡以及个体价值。这一点与我们的关注就大不相同。

相比之下，西方诗歌的哲学性、神性，语言的朴素感、个体感，都有我们借鉴的地方。

ZWZ: As the representative of the most active poet so far in our Chinese poem circle, what you have estimated on the west poems , in my view of point ,it is a stimulation for yourself, it proved your willing in profile on poetry which is the desire of creation and breaking out of tradition. When we overlook the poetic garden of human, what do you think of the international poetic circles? As I know, you have been so far playing some important roles in a lot of poetry journal or communities, how did those recently diversifying poetry conference impress you through those journal and communities? How do you think of those activity of poetic circles? Whom did these activities bred?

■章闻哲：您作为中国诗坛上至今活跃的代表性诗者，对于西方诗歌的这一评价，在我看来，是一种对自身的鞭笞，它从侧面印证了您一贯要求创新突围的诗歌意志。放眼整个人类诗歌伊甸园，您对于国际诗坛有什么看法或了解？我知道您在许多诗歌刊物或社团里，至今担任着重要角色，通过这些刊物或社团，您对于近年来，国内形形色色的诗会又有什么印象或了解？您觉得，这些诗坛活动，都孕育了哪些诗人？

Qiaoyan: This also be a exterior phenomenon of the prosperity of the poem. Foreign poet are so envious of the Chinese poets, for they can participate variety of poetic activity, sightseeing, interviewing, colloquium and evaluation activities in essay competitions ...just presented too delightful or overdriven. They are confused on how these poems are generated.

It’s no doubt, that , such poems have been the behavior of the nation, the group, and be run as daily works. It’s both benefit and harmful to us. The benefits is to enlarge our visionary , to improve communications, rich the accumulation. the disadvantage is that we are difficult to create good poems when we are in a state of participating all the activities of poetry like the trotting horse lamp. Majority of poets depend on this manner to accumulate materials, and to process the work when go back home.

The International Pen For Chinese Poets which I am responsible for some works of it, is a big academic group in international. It created in June 6, 1993, in the cheers for prosperity of poems, supported by poets of China and one from overseas. Up to hundred people attended the poetry conference during its most thriving times. At its initial , is Li Qin who from Hang Kong be tasked with the chairman, and Ye Man be the chairman of initial establishments; today , turn to Zhang Shijian who’s from Hang Kong to act as chairman, and I be the deputy. Hong Santai, Sarentuya, Cai Lishuang are tasked with vice-chairmen. It has so far hold 22 plenary session. The pen set two great awards[ golden award for contemporary poetic soul of China][ golden award for great contributor within contemporary poets], it is very respected by society. Old poets that is Ai Qin, Zang Kejia, He Jingzhi, Guo Xiaocuan, Li Yin, Zeng Zuo, Zhou Difan, Jidimajia, and Lei Shuyan, and so on, have all won the great awards. In the plenary session of Chang Le in province Fujian, we added a another award that is International poetry award of Bin Xin.

The Pen have always been supported by He Jingzhi, Jidi Majia, Yue Xuanyi, and Xiaoxue.

The purpose of the Pen, is to develop the tradition of Chinese poetry, through taking the form of international and domestic communications, to enlarge the impacts, proclaim creations, compensate the experience for each other, saw and cultivate in the more widely realms, let the spirit of Chinese poetry broadcast all over the world.

Several decades had we engaged in, we obtained a lot, published more than ten “THE WORLD OF POETRY”,cultivated mass of poets of international Chinese. During the most recent session of 20th, 21th, emerged large amounts of poets, such as Lu Jing, Huang Dongcheng, Gui Xinhua, PanGen, Fu Tianhong, Cai Zongzhou, Dong Peilun, Kangqiao, and the Xiong Guohua Tang Deliang, Yang Siping, Mo Shanxian, Ludao, Zeng Xinyou, Dong Zhenguo that from inland; and Shalang , Zhang Jizheng, Zhao Xiaobo, Chen Juan, Luyu, Zhou Han that from Hong Kong, and Zhuang Weijie from Australia, Zhen Chouyu, Luti, Fang Ming from Tai Wai, Wang Xingcu from America, Ma yan from Korea, Wang Tao from Malaysia, Linjing from Singapore, are all the backbone power of the Pen. They are all brilliant for their great poems that generated from their homelands respectively.

It deserve to raise the famous poet Shalang who comes from Hang Kong, under the impacts and support of the International Pens For Chinese poets, he created the Research council For International Contemporary Chinese poetry, to improve the prosperity of the Hong Kong poetry, he united the local poets and critics, based on Hong Kong, Face to the world, to carry out great scale of discussion of Chinese poetry, to debate in a more large range the origin and charm of the poetry, and having so far impacted people from domestic and overseas.

■峭 岩：这也是诗歌繁荣的一个表象。外国诗人很羡慕中国诗人，能够参加各种诗歌活动，观光、访问、座谈、评奖……不亦乐乎。他们奇怪，这些诗歌是怎么写出来的？

无疑，这种诗会已经成为国家行为、集团行为，正常化运转。有好处，也有敝端。好处是开阔眼界，促进交流，丰富积累。敝端是，走马灯式的写作，很难写出精彩的诗歌。大部分诗人靠这种方式积累，回到自我中进行再加工，再写作。

我所在的国际华文诗人笔会，是一个大型的国际性的学术团体。它创会于1993年6月，在诗歌繁荣的一片欢呼声中创建，受到了国内外华文诗人的拥戴，兴盛时期一次笔会多达上百人参加。最初是香港的犁青任主席，野曼任创会主席。今天，香港的张诗剑任主席，我任常务主席。洪三泰、萨仁图娅、蔡丽双任副主席。至今已举办过22届诗会。由于笔会设两个大奖【中国当代诗魂金奖】【中国当代诗人杰出贡献金奖】社会格外重视。老诗人艾青、臧克家、贺敬之、郭小川、李瑛、曾卓、邹荻帆、吉狄马加、雷抒雁等都获过大奖。2021年在福建长乐笔会上，又增加了一个【冰心国际诗歌奖】。

笔会一直受到贺敬之、吉狄马加、岳宣义、晓雪的支持。

笔会的宗旨是，弘扬中国诗歌光荣传统，以国际、国内交流的形式，扩大影响，提倡创新，经验互补，在更大范围播种耕耘，让中国诗歌精神广播世界。几十年走来，收获了不少，出版了十几部《诗世界》，培养了一大批国际华文诗人。比如，最近举办的第20届、21届诗人笔会上颁奖的诗人吕进、黄东成、桂兴华、盼耕、傅天虹、蔡宗周、董佩伦、康桥，以及大陆的熊国华、唐德亮、杨四平、莫善贤、绿岛、曾新友、董振国 ，香港的沙浪 、张继征、招小波、陈娟 、路羽、周翰，澳大利亚的庄伟杰 ，台湾的郑愁予、绿蒂、方明，美国的王性初、韩国的马彦.、马来西亚的王涛 、新加坡的林锦等，都是笔会的骨干力量。他们在各自的土地上，绽放诗歌的光彩。

值得一提的是香港的著名诗人沙浪，他在国际华文诗人笔会的影响和支持下，为了繁荣香港诗歌，他创办了国际当代华文诗歌研究会，把当地诗人、评论家团结起来，立足香港，面向世界，开展华文诗歌的大讨论，在更宽泛的范围探讨华文诗歌的源渊与魅力，已影响国内外。

ZWZ：As a sophisticated poet, to some degree is just like a window of the poetic circle, through you ,readers can see half of the poetic world----most of poets may hope to participate some Pens, to experience the humanity in orientation of the world constructed by poets.

■章闻哲：您这样的老诗人，在某种意义上就是一扇诗坛的窗口，通过您，读者几乎可以看到诗坛的半壁江山了——诗人们应该大多希望有机会可以参加一些笔会，来深入感受一下诗人建筑向度上的人文氛围 ！

Qiaoyan: these prosperity of Pens, demonstrated the immortal and of a mass character. A country with population of 1.4 billion, a great ancient country with poetic style of Tang dynasty and Song dynasty, carrying out activities, and creating festival of poetry, is the basic manner. It played a important role in developing the Chinese poetic spirit, pushing forward the Chinese poetry.

Of course , there is a suspicion of formalism, how to improve the quality of poetic activities, to aim at the present problems precisely, e.g: to add aura to academic research, award contributors among the poets, improve the status of poetry in the local systems, and so on, are all wait to be explored.

■峭岩：这些笔会的繁荣，说明诗歌的不朽性和群众性。一个14亿大国，一个有唐宋诗风的古老传统的大国，办活动，搞诗歌节，是必须的手段。对推动中国诗歌的步伐，弘扬中国诗歌精神，起了至关重要的作用。

当然，也有走形式的怀疑，如何提升诗歌活动的品质，有的放矢的解决当下的问题，比如加重学术气氛，奖励贡献诗人，争取诗歌在地方体制中的地位等，仍是有待探索的问题。

ZWZ: You had ever been the mentor of the Literature System Of PLA Art Institute, also be the leader of the PLA press, how do you think that between the secularity and PLA literature and art, what form should there be existed except of strong humanity and heroic characters and the symbols of politic lyricism? In other words, are they correct for each other or do the works respectively or being opposite between this and that literature and art when they are comprising the whole national literature and artistic lives?

■章闻哲：您曾是解放军艺术学院文学系的导师，也是解放军出版社的领导，您认为，解放军文艺除了强烈的英雄主义人文色彩和政治抒情物征之外，与世俗文艺应当有何种对话形式？换言之，这种文艺与那种文艺在构成民族整体文学与艺术生活乃至财产方面，是彼此对峙、纠正还是各司其职？

Qiaoyan : The military literature and art is the important parts of the Chinese literature and art. It had ever been the major stream for historic reason (namely :the war) in our country until long after the origin stage of nation’s l founding. Though the social system had changed , the military literature and art as a vivifying force, is respected seriously by nation .

To keep the character of bloody spirit of military literature and art, harden soldiers’ willpower of persistent and dauntless, make them be brave to draw sword before any strong enemy of the world, is the first task of the military literature and art. Form this point of view, it is harmonious with national literature and art, and being complementary with the later and boost later.

As regard as the development problem of the military poetry, it remind me of the year 2019 which I had a correspondence with Tutor Xie Mian which published by the journal PLA in the year, to talk about the problem in specialty of how to apply the military poems to the great time, how to improve the military poems’ writing to a better level. The heroism necessarily is the formal phenomenon and daily attitude, but it also include the content of secularity, the soldier is also a mortal man for demand of substance of folk, for their desire and sensibility, their require for the warmth from home and taking care of neighbour or being concerned by them. But there is a boundary between the military and secular world, those of vulgar and dirty, are refused by the former.

to make the military writer to comprehend the local things, to make the later also realize the former, the original GPD allied with the WSOC with a signed document, to recognize the writer of military to visit local writers regularly, and inversely. It’s no doubt a good tactic to strong and expand the national integral literature. The PLA today is reconstructed, how should the literature and art of China to melt into and construct its culture, are still wait to be negotiated.

■峭 岩：军队文艺是中国文艺的重要组成部分，由于历史上的战争原因它曾是主流。直到建国初期一段很长时期军队文艺充当了国家文艺的支撑。尽管社会体制发生了变化，军队文艺作为一支特殊的生力军，被国家所拥戴。

保持军队文艺的铁血精神品质，磨砺军人坚忍不拔的意志，敢于在世界任何强敌面前亮剑，是军队文艺〔诗歌〕首要任务。从这一点出发，它与民族整体文艺是合拍的，有着互补助推的作用。

关于军旅诗歌的发展问题，记得2019年我与谢冕先生有一个通信，发表在当年的解放军报上，专门就军旅诗如何适应大时代的呼唤，写好军旅诗，其中也涉及到这个问题。英雄主义必然是军队的常态表象，但它也包容世俗文艺的存在，军人也食人间烟火，允许七情六欲、家长理短，但有一个界限，低俗的、汚秽的，是受到排斥的。

为了让军旅作家了解地方，让地方作家了解军队，原来的总政与中国作家协会联合签署文件，定期组织“军队作家访问地方”“地方作家走进军营”活动，无疑，对壮大民族整体文学是个好的举措。今天的军队结构重组了，怎样融合与建构，还有待于进一步商榷。

ZWZ: Who are closed most to yours in view of poetry among the poets of the old generates? Whether you think that for the purpose of forming a sincere and honest communication and auras of poetry around us, or to form a natural aura of poetic academic interchange, may get achievement both by variety of poetic activities and the practices of entering situations of mutually improved in creation and academy by exceeding general activity of poem? Which is more utopia ?

■章闻哲:在老诗人里面，您在诗观上最与之接近的是哪位？您有否觉得，在您周围形成一种真诚的诗歌交流氛围，或一种自然的诗歌交流，既可能通过各种诗会活动来达成，也可能超越一般的诗歌活动，进入一种学术和创作彼此促进的实践方式？两种方式，哪种更乌托邦？

Qiaoyan: I have gown up on the shoulder of predecessors, on my way to the poetry, there are so many old poets as a special companion. About this point , Ludao had written one chapter titled with Admire The Great Master in the book that called Biography Of Qiaoyan, marked my communication with the old generations in special.

E. g: Tianjian, Aiqing, Liu Baiyu, Wei Wei, Li Ying, He jingzhi, Xie Mian and so on. There are fully with the story, tears, and the past that ever moved our psyche. Their light shining at me, led me step by step toward the sacred hall of poem.

■峭 岩：我是踩踏前人的肩膀上走过来的，一路上少不了老诗人的陪伴。关于这一点绿岛写的《峭岩传》里有一章叫《敬仰大师》，专门记录了我与老一辈诗人的交际。

比如：田间、臧克家、艾青、刘白羽、魏巍、李瑛、贺敬之、谢冕等。都是有故事、有泪水、有心动的过往。他们的光芒照耀着我，我一步一步走进诗歌。

ZWZ: As regard Wei Wei, we all may have ever learned a text titled with Who Is The Most Lovely Man at school, so , it sounds somewhat warm and strange when it is mentioned by you. I know that there is a reportage with biography style that written by you ,this work to some degrees can be seen as a transmitting of “the most lovely man”, it’s no doubt that , Wei Wei in your work is also “The most lovely man”, could you please talk about this predecessor in detail? As a leading authority of the circle of prose, what relations have you ever got with him in poetry?

■章闻哲：关于魏巍，我们上学时，都学过一篇《谁是最可爱的人》的课文，所以，这个名字从您这里说出来，既亲切，又陌生，我知道您专门为魏巍前辈写过一部传纪体的报告文学，这部传纪，某种程度上是“最可爱的人”的一种传递，不用说，在您笔下的魏巍同样是最可爱的人，给我们具体谈谈魏巍前辈？他作为散文界的泰斗，与您这位诗老，又有着怎样的诗歌交集？

Qiaoyan: Right, just at the beginning of 1980s, I wrote Walk Towards The Burning Fields -- The Biography of Wei Wei, as a task on invitation of the Press Beiyue Literature And Art. I have a good relation with Wei Wei , Li Yin, and Xie Mian. Wei Wei is a poet in the army which I had ever served, He was living close to my house, we have a lot of chance to visit each other. His Scenery Of The Dawn in my point of view is full of atmosphere of pureness and freshness which quite moved me. He had ever correct my poem, and written a preface with enthusiasm for my book The Lofty Man----Poetic Biography of Bai Qiuen. He indicated the title Bright Star ----The Dust Went Through The Years , and tell me that : bright star , content a metaphor, also has willing to be a bright star, to rise in the sky of poetic circle. What he said are really a expectation for me.

The heroic character and righteousness of the elder Wei impressed people well. Once I saw him standing in the yard, overlooking the black bird on the tree with a walking stick in hand, and muttering: “it comes when there is any situation, crying with sounds of ‘keke’, seems to tell me what... no one knows its name, I call it the black phoenix when we have known each other gradually,”actually, it’s the poem growing.

■峭岩：对，八十年代初，应北岳文艺出版社之邀，我为他写过《走向燃烧的土地——魏巍传》。我和魏巍、李瑛、谢冕交往可谓甚密。魏巍是我当兵所在部队的老诗人，他就住在家门口，串门的机会较多。他的《黎明风景》读出了诗的清新气象，让我感动。他为我改过诗歌，也曾为我的长诗《高尚的人——白求恩诗传》写过热情洋溢的序。他指着标题《明星，穿过岁月的风尘》对我说，“明星，有暗喻，也盼望成为一颗明星，在诗坛上升起。可见他对我的殷切的期待。

魏老的豪迈气质和做人的刚正品质深入心。有一次，我见到他站在院里，手拄拐杖眺望树上一只黑色大鸟的情形，口中念叨：它有事时就飞来，喀喀地叫几声，似乎告诉我什么……不知道叫什么名字，熟悉了，我叫它“黑凤凰……”其实，这就是诗歌的萌动。

ZWZ: What about predecessor Li Yin?

■章闻哲：李瑛前辈呢？

Qiaoyan: Li Yin is the witness of my poems, my respected teacher. We have letters of communication which are all about poetry. Loving a poet , namely to read his poem, and do communication with heart to heart. His Corpus of Zao Lin Village, and The Northern borderland Being Prosperous Like Fire are browsed by me time and time. Li Yin scarcely write preface for others, however he wrote the preface for my collection of prose poems Sensibility Of A Soldier. Just in a long article Display A Leaping World, he wrote down: likely discovered a new star, yearning for its rising into the sky of poetry. “ expressed a kind expectation from a elder to the inferior.”

He hadn’t teacher me how to write poem sentence by sentence, but I absorbed nutrition from his behaviors and speech. His eyes tell me his expectation and sincere, the follow and leaf which he collected teach me to love life, the bullets he picked back teach me to realize the contribution and war.

It’s the third anniversary of his death in March of this year, the PLA journal published my article of mourning him The Singing Cuckoo which represent my deepest commemoration.

■峭 岩： 李瑛是我诗歌的见证者，是我敬重的师长。我们的信件有几十封，都是谈诗的。喜欢一个诗人就读他的诗，在诗里交心、对话。他的《枣林村集》《北疆红似火》是我翻乱了的书。李瑛很少为别人的书写序，而我的散文诗集《士兵的情愫》破天荒地写了。在《展现一个跃动的世界》长文里，“像发现新星一样，瞩望着他在诗坛上升起。”表达了一位长者对晚辈的美好期待……

他没有一句、一句教我怎么写诗，我是从他的言谈举止中汲取营养的。他的眼神告诉我真诚和期待，他采集的花叶叫我热爱生活，他捡回的子弹壳叫我认识牺牲和战争。

今年3月是李瑛逝世3周年，解放军报特地发了我写的文章《歌唱的布谷鸟》，是扎心的怀念。

ZWZ：Contrarily, young generates may know tutor Xie Mian more than predecessor Li Yin, but it is also hard to say that more details about Mr Xie were comprehended by youth.can you talk of what your impression of tutor Xie? And the friendship between him and you?

■章闻哲：相对李瑛前辈，年轻一代诗人对谢冕老师的了解也许更多，但也很难说有一种具体的认知。谈谈您对谢冕老师的印象，以及您与他的友谊？

Qianyan: it was at the beginning of 1990s, I was working in literature department of PLA artistic institution. And have keeping attitude of a pupil before Mr Xian for several decades since he was invited to our college, to absorb the nutrition from his spirit with my heart and soul, so as to consolidate my poetic barriers. Mr Xie is an old man featured with young , he is good at talking and flexible with wisdom, everything he had spoken of can always reach the essence of things, and I was going to write down with my pen. One day, we went to the mountain Jiu Hua Shan to held a plenary session of poetry, Mr Xian stepped onto the stage, made a speach with great passion when the joss stick burning with smoke around us, and the vioce of Buddha echoed, he said: what is Buddha? It is the great wisdom, the great happiness, the great mercy! This is the stage of spirit which Chinese poetry need to learn!” what he said is astonishing to everyone at scene, caused a sea of raving.

I have always visit him with Ludao and Liu Xiaowei, we chatted with happy with a cup of wine in our hand, asking the God ,the ground. Mr Xie was walking with witticism constantly. The journal Chinese Poetry invited Mr Xie to inscribe for the journal, Mr Xie thought about it for a little while, the magnificent panorama of mountain and the liver of China sprang up gathered under his pen, he wrote down a poem of Jiadao: “the autumn wind blows the water Wei, fallen leaves full with the Chang An city”, later ,he talked of the background of this poem of Jiadao glidingly. We have learned a lot from Mr Xie through everything of him.

A deep friendship were established day by day between I and him. Mr Xie also had ever served for the PLA force when he was young, he is the leader of army ranked of deputy platoon, so Mr Xie in my heart is not only a tutor, but also a veteran, therefore there is a feeling of being closed between us. It’s no doubt, heart connected within pupil and his teacher. Just in last month, I called him when I missed him for several moths without seeing each other, likely I had foreseen something. There came a voice of his old companion teacher Chen from the other end of the phone : Mr Xie was hurt by a fall, he is in hospital...I was surprised by this information, couldn’t even speak a word.

Mr Xie has stuck to physical training for decades, was always being a state of good healthy both in body and mind, his birthday of 90 past not long ago, how can he hurt by fall? Until a poem of him and a picture of his being in the hospital with beam were uploaded through We-Chat, presented to us, can I stop to worrying about him.

It is such things between the pupil and his teacher, likely having left for three autumns while no seen for a day. We decided to see him as soon as the epidemic situation be relieved.

■峭 岩： 和谢冕老师成为朋友是九十年代初，那时我在解放军艺术学院文学系工作，请谢老来学院讲学开始，几十年的交际我总是学生的姿态，心领面受他的精神营养，加固我的诗歌壁垒。谢老是一个青春老人，他健谈而且灵动智慧，一言一语总能抵达事物的本质，我也会用笔记下来。一次去九华山的九子岩开诗会，面对香火缭绕、佛音回荡，他上台激情地说：“佛是什么？是大智慧、大欢喜、大慈悲，这正中国诗歌应该借鉴的境界！”一语压众声，场下感叹声一片。

逢节时，我和绿岛、刘笑伟去看他，我们把酒颜欢，问天，问地，酒席桌上谢老幽默妙语连连。《中国汉诗》杂志请谢老题词，谢老脑子一转，汉诗的山河气象涌上笔端，顺手写下贾岛的诗句：“秋风吹渭水，落叶满长安”，又把贾岛这首诗的背景连贯道出。跟谢老在一起，点点滴滴皆学问。

日子久了，我俩情感甚笃。谢老青年时代当过几年兵，用他的话说是“军队的副排级干部”，因此，在我的心目中谢老不仅是老师，也是一位老兵，我们便有一种诗歌之外的亲近感。师生连心，一点不假。上个月有一天想他了，给他打电话，疫情阻隔几个月未见，心里好像有预感似的。电话传来他老伴陈老师的声音：“谢老摔伤了，在医院治疗呢……”我惊呆了，一时说不出话来。

谢老坚持锻炼几十年，身体硬朗、精神矍铄，不久前刚过完九十岁生日，怎么摔跤了呢？终于有一天，微信上传来谢老的《换骨记》和身着病号服的照片，谢老依然满面春风，乐观如故，我才放下悬挂的心。

师生之间就是这个样子，一日不见如隔三秋。说好了，疫情稍稳后，我们就去看望谢冕老师！

ZWZ: A sincere expectation for Mr Xie to recover soon! Contrary to the historic meeting between Mr Xie and the young generation, I think that , here also included a consciousness of avant-garde. Teacher Qiaoyan, how do you think, whether there is avant-garde in our age? Suppose there is a contemporary idealism, how to describe poets that bears such idealism?

■章闻哲: 希望谢冕老师早日康复！相对谢冕老师与年轻一代诗人的那种历史性际遇，我认为，这里也包含了一种先锋意识。峭岩老师，您认为当代有没有先锋诗人？设想有一种当代的理想，那么承载这种理想的诗人该如何描述？

Qiaoyan: The history is always like that , to guide by the advanced thoughts, changed by some pioneers, they had ever been brilliant, remembered by that age. Poem as a sensible nerve of time, almost every time has its own representative since its birth, they intended to reform by implement their own advocating, until a ideal kingdom emerges. Hu Shi, Xu Zhimo, Ai QING, Cangyao, Su Ting, Haizi, and so on, are all wrote into the history by their bright character of pioneer .

I consider that , in the complicate and multiple form of the present society which being at the turning of the history, we poets must apply ourselves to the great mind, great arrangement with great mind, and the great work. The avant-garde of this time, are necessarily be the selfless and justice, not only serve the world first, but also restrain themselves severely. Under the precondition of public consciousness, to be a lone traveler of soul, inspect the world with philosophy, to describe the time with special language of poem, to provide the public of nowadays thoughts which could enlighten.

■峭 岩：历史总是这样，被先进的思想所引领，被一些先锋改写，他们曾辉煌过，为那个时代所铭记。诗歌作为敏感的神经，从它一诞生起，几乎每个时代都有每个时代表人物，他们企图用自己的主张变革，达到一个理想的王国。胡适、徐志摩、艾青、昌耀、舒婷、海子等等，都是披着先锋的光环被写进历史的。

我以为，在当前的历史转型期所提交的繁杂多元的社会形态，必须与大胸怀、大格局、大手笔相对应，这个时期的先锋诗人，必然无私、公正，不仅先天下，还要克己修身。在公共意识的前提下，做一个灵魂的孤旅者，以哲学的眼光醒察，以诗歌的独特语言描绘这个时代，为当代民众提供可鉴的思想光芒。

ZWZ: So much obtained from the communication here, thanks to you ,my teacher, and for your kind of accepting the interview.

■章闻哲：今日采访受益良多，感谢峭岩老师拨冗接受采访。

BRIEF INTRODUCTION OF INTERVIEWER AND INTERVIEWEE

Qiaoyan: former deputy director and senior editor and supervisor ofPLA Press, the deputy chairman ofInternational Pen Club for Chinese poets, the chief editor ofPoetic world of China. Have so far published collections and works thatcounted for 60, ingenre of short poem, long poem, prose ,biography, and theoretical works. He was awarded theGolden Prize For Chinese Contemporary Poetic Soulby International Pen Club for Chinese poets, and his works have so far won variety of awards from domestic to overseas.

峭 岩：原解放军出版社副社长兼编审，现为国际华文诗人笔会常务主席，《中国诗界 》总编。出版短诗、长诗、散文、传记、理论著作60余部，本人获国际华文诗人笔会授予的《中国当代诗魂金奖 》，其作品获国际国内多种奖项。

Zhang Wenzhe: Chinese female poet, literary theorist from Zhu JI ,Zhe Jiang province. The author of works such as prose poem collection On The Main Land; the theoretical monograph on prose poetryThe Society Of Prose Poetry; the work concerns philosophy of literature and artMicro-Exploration Of Chinese Socialistic Aesthetics(systematic, and still to be comprehensive); the work concerns art philosophy titled withThe Dream, Art And Humanismwith words counted for more than a million . the workThe Other Bank Of Literature: From The Genre “Among The Flowers” To The Poem Of Qiaoyan( her another theoretical monograph on commenting of Qiaoyan’s poem is included in Micro-Exploration Of Chinese Socialistic Aesthetics ); andThe Cultural Genealogy Of Ownership And It’s Subjects----The Micro-Exploration On Contemporary Poetry( which is the extension of series Micro-Exploration Of Chinese Socialistic Aesthetic); and so on.

章闻哲：女，诗人，文论家，本名章文哲，浙江诸暨人。撰有散文诗集《在大陆上》;散文诗理论专著《散文诗社会》，文艺哲学论著《中国社会主义美学探微》系列(待完善)，百万余字艺术哲学类论著《梦、艺术、人本主义》；军旅文学发展研究《文学彼岸：从“花间派”到峭岩诗歌》（她的另一部关于峭岩诗歌的评论专著收入《中国社会主义美学探微》系列）；《所有制文化谱系与主体——当代诗歌美学探微》（作为《中国社会主义美学探微》的延伸产品）等多部。