龚鹏程x芮薇拉｜通过交叉视角来寻求生育正义

龚鹏程对话海外学者第八十七期：在后现代情境中，被技术统治的人类社会，只有强化交谈、重建沟通伦理，才能获得文化新生的力量。这不是谁的理论，而是每个人都应实践的活动。龚鹏程先生遊走世界，并曾主持过“世界汉学研究中心”。我们会陆续推出“龚鹏程对话海外学者”系列文章，请他对话一些学界有意义的灵魂。范围不局限于汉学，会涉及多种学科。以期深山长谷之水，四面而出。

瑞秋·散泽-芮薇拉（Rachell Sánchez-Rivera）

波多黎各学者，曾获得美国哥伦比亚大学拉丁美洲和加勒比地区研究硕士，剑桥大学皇后学院拉丁美洲研究中心博士，剑桥大学社会学系博士后。

现任剑桥大学（University of Cambridge）冈维尔和凯斯学院（Gonville & Caius College）种族和反种族主义研究中心研究员，剑桥大学社会学系生殖社会学研究小组 、经济和社会研究理事会理事。

剑桥大学社会学系教学奖、导师奖获得者。

龚鹏程：您好。您的经历，几乎可算是个旅行家，游走于拉丁美洲、美洲、欧洲之间。除了知识追求、课业学习之外，我觉得您还善用了两个网络，一是社会上的旅行补助制度，二是世界性的学术网络。

例如您曾获得的健康与疾病社会学基金会之会议旅行补助金、剑桥大学皇后学院旅行补助金、哥伦比亚大学的论文实地考察波多黎各之旅行补助金等，属于第一类。

第二类其实是学术社群这种“非国家行动者”本身的动能，例如，您经常参加的学校跨国合作项目获国际研讨会。

请介绍一下在这两个网络的共同作用下，您是如何逐渐形成了你的研究兴趣？另外，您认为在您的研究领域中有什么令人兴奋的最新发展?

散泽-芮薇拉：龚教授，您好，非常感谢您邀请我参加这个对话项目。我的学术兴趣主要集中在科学社会学、社会不平等、性别和生育这几个范畴。

在我的书稿——《墨西哥优生学经历了些什么?：种族主义和民族的繁衍》中，我探讨了20世纪初墨西哥优生学的起源，并追溯了其至今的延续和演变。根据采用的档案材料和当代积极分子的报告，我的研究揭示了优生学家在墨西哥民族国家的建立中扮演了重要的角色。这将是第一本以英文书写的墨西哥优生学著作，这帮助我们拓宽了对优生学的跨国关系及其当代遗留问题的理解。

在这份书稿中，我运用长时段（longue durée）历史和社会学分析去了解优生学在墨西哥是怎么产生的（墨西哥革命后1910 – 1920期间），并解答了关于在1950年代中期，墨西哥优生学会解散后，在优生思想和实践上的发展。通过探讨这个问题，呈现出优生观念的全球互联性，并介绍了在特定环境下知识如何产生，以及这些观念如何影响个人的日常生活。我认为在墨西哥的优生思想的影响下，国家机构的建立，反而助长了将优生学家眼中不利于改善国家发展的群体‘病态化’；而在这种隐晦的表达方式下，这些缺乏明显种族主义色彩的观点正正导致了优生思想依然存世至今。因此，即使在优生学的措辞已不再被接受的情况下，我也提供了一些方法以便识别现今优生思想和实践的延续。

我相信在我的研究领域中，最令人兴奋的发展之一，是对优生学遗留问题的探讨，许多人似乎将优生学视为伪科学，认为其不再与当代对社会或文化的理解有关；然而，优生学思想的影响其实仍然持续着。

Hello, Professor Gong. Thank you so much for your invitation for this programme. My primary academic interests are the sociology of science, social inequalities, gender, and reproduction. My book manuscript, entitled What Happened to Mexican Eugenics?: Racism and the Reproduction of the Nation explores the origins of eugenics in Mexico at the beginning of the twentieth century and traces its continuity and evolution into the present day. Using a mixture of archival materials and contemporary activists reports, my research shows how central the role of eugenicists was to the creation of the Mexican nation-state. This project will be the first book dedicated to Mexican eugenics that is written in English, broadening our understanding of transnational connections of eugenics and its contemporary legacies.

This book manuscript uses a longue durée historical and sociological analysis in order tounderstand how eugenics came about in Mexico (after the Mexican Revolution 1910-1920) and to answer the question of what happened to eugenic ideas and practices after the dissolution of the Mexican Society of Eugenics (SME) in the mid-1950s. The answer to this question demonstrates the global interconnectedness of eugenic ideas, the production of context-specific knowledge and how these notions have an impact on the every-day life of individuals. I argue that eugenic ideas in Mexico allowed the creation of a national body that, in turn, helped to pathologize groups that, in the eugenicists’ view, were detrimental to the improvement of the national stock—ideas that continue to exist today through the usage of veiled and coded language that lack overtly racist overtones. Thus, I provide the tools to recognize the continuation of eugenic practices and ideas even after the language of eugenics falls from acceptability.

I believe that one of the most exciting developments in my research area are the legacies of eugenics. A lot of people seem to cast eugenics as a pseudoscience that no longer has relevance in contemporary understandings of society or culture, nonetheless, the impacts of eugenic ideas still persist.

龚鹏程：您的研究兴趣广泛，从健康与疾病社会学、酷儿理论、生殖社会学，到残疾研究，很想听听您对优生学的研究和叙述。

散泽-芮薇拉：我在纽约市哥伦比亚大学的硕士论文中，研究了在美国殖民地波多黎各用避孕药进行优生实验的媒介表现。这使我发现了在美洲和欧洲不同的优生学协会有着非常广泛的跨国关系。也使我在Alexandra Stern和Nancy Stepan的著作中，了解到优生学在美洲有着各式各样的实施方式，而且他们经常创造自己的科学语言和术语。

这种方法使我能够从不同的角度探索墨西哥优生学的发展，包括墨西哥优生学协会的成员在个人和国家层面上对家庭的形成所产生的影响，以及谁属于和不属于墨西哥民族的定义。这本书稿的主要论点是，优生学并不是简单地消失，而是继续在个人管理自己身体的过程中，国家有关公共卫生危机的措施，如艾滋病毒流行、残疾和人口控制问题中继续存在着。

总的来说，这个著作引入了“狡猾的优生学”这个概念，以解释墨西哥优生学思想的持续发展和影响，我认为，这些思想至今继续塑造着民族的繁衍。

My MA thesis at Columbia University in the City of New York focused on the mediatic representations of the eugenic experimentations with the contraceptive pill in Puerto Rico, which is a colony of the United States of America. This led me to find broader transnational connections with the different societies of eugenics all throughout the Americas and Europe. This led me to find the works of Alexandra Stern and Nancy Stepan who argue that the ways in which eugenics was carried out in the Americas was multifarious and they often created their own scientific language and terminology. This approach enabled me to explore the development of eugenics in Mexico from different angles, including the impact members of the Mexican Society of Eugenics had on the making of the family at an individual and national level, and the definition of who does—and does not—belong to the Mexican nation. The main argument of this book manuscript is that eugenics did not simply disappear but continues to be seen in the processes through which individuals manage their own bodies, as well as in state measures concerning public health crises such as the HIV epidemic, disability, and issues of population control. Overall, this work introduces the concept of slippery eugenics to account for the ongoing development and impact of eugenic ideas in Mexico, which, I argue, continue to shape the reproduction of the nation into the present.

龚鹏程：您虽年轻，但在拉丁美洲研究这个领域已经很具有发言权。您做过一系列的特约讲座，如 “在色盲世界中表现黑人激进主义”， “拉丁美洲的性别暴力”， “格雷罗的土著人、种族主义和绝育”等。您刚才还还提出了 “狡猾的优生学”的概念，以及它在现实社会上的存在状况。请您再接着谈一谈“狡猾的优生学”与当下种族和种族主义研究的相关性。

散泽-芮薇拉：迄今为止，我的主要贡献是结论性地证明了优生学并不是简单地消失，而是继续在个人管理自己身体的过程中，国家有关公共卫生危机的措施，如艾滋病毒流行、残疾和人口控制问题中继续存在着。总的来说，我的作品引入了狡猾的优生学的创新概念，以解释墨西哥优生学思想的持续发展和影响，我认为，这些思想至今继续塑造着这个国家的再生产。

例如，在目前的学术研究中，我们已经看到了人们是如何倡导回归优生理念的，Jorge Linares Santiago (他在墨西哥，是墨西哥国立大学社会科学和人文学系的系主任)，Stephen Hsu (美国物理学家，密歇根州立大学助理教授），他的哈佛博士学位包含了提倡优生的主张，以及每年一次的伦敦大学学院优生思想会议。

这些都证明了“狡猾的优生学”与今天的种族和种族主义研究的相关性。总的来说，狡猾的优生学动摇了优生学的分期，以此来指出“种族主义的表现已经渗透到社会生活，并改变了他们的呈现方式”。

我认为，狡猾的优生学能帮助我们了解 “种族”科学的遗留问题是如何渗透进墨西哥民族主义——一个“混血国家在社会、科学、医学和文化上的理解。我未来的研究项目将扩展至与种族主义和残疾主义优生实践（特别关注）有关的狡猾优生学，即墨西哥的残疾人和土著人的系统性绝育。

The main contribution of my research thus far has been, to demonstrate quite conclusively that eugenics did not simply disappear but continues to be seen in the processes through which individuals manage their own bodies, as well as in state measures concerning public health crises such as the HIV epidemic, disability, and issues of population control. Overall, my work introduces the innovative concept of slippery eugenics to account for the ongoing development and impact of eugenic ideas in Mexico, which, I argue, continue to shape the reproduction of the nation into the present. For instance in current scholarship, we have seen how people are now advocating for a return to eugenic ideas like Jorge Linares Santiago (who is in Mexico and is the head of the social sciences and humanities department in the UNAM), Stephen Hsu (an American physicist and Assistant Professor at Michigan State University whose Harvard PhD contained claims advocating for eugenic, and the yearly UCL conference on eugenic ideas. These all demonstrate the relevance of ‘slippery eugenics’ to studies of race and racism today. Overall, Slippery eugenics shakes the periodization of eugenics as a way of showing how ‘expressions of racism have infiltrated social life and transformed their modes of presentation’ (Moreno Figueroa 2006: 17). I argue that slippery eugenics provides the tools to understand how the legacies of ‘race’ science have penetrated social, scientific, medical, and cultural understandings of Mexican nationalism as a ‘mestizo (mixedraced) nation’. My future research project will expand on slippery eugenics in relation to racist and ableist eugenic practices (with a special focus) on the systemic sterilization of people constructed as disabled and indigenous peoples in Mexico.

龚鹏程：研究种族主义的多年，您认为大学在种族主义中扮演了什么角色? 学术界能做些什么来对抗种族主义?

散泽-芮薇拉：我相信大学在反对种族主义方面发挥着重要作用。作为学者，我们的工作是以一种交叉的方式与社会不平等作斗争。

此外，大学需要努力实现包容性、多样性，更重要的是，积极打击种族主义。

在我任教的社会学系，我们有一个去殖民化社会学工作组，这个组正式成立于2017年10月，它的主要目标是实现上述部门的去殖民化。为了实现这一点，工作小组“收集有关部门去殖民化的实际措施上的建议”，“实施切实可行的措施，使部门生活的各个方面去殖民化”，评估、代表，并与剑桥校内外其他去殖民化倡议合作。

此外，在剑桥大学，我们还有“终结日常种族主义”倡议，这是一个由社会学系的Ella McPherson博士和Monica Moreno Figueroa博士独立开发的研究项目。在他们的官方网站上，表示:“该项目旨在通过数字、描述性和地理证据来发展我们对日常种族主义的理解，以建立一个集体案例，支持大学和更多地方的反种族主义宣传和社会正义行动主义。”

此外，我认为倾听学生们的担忧是非常重要的，尤其是在学校里讨论和对抗反黑人身份的时候。这就是为什么剑桥大学和学院成立了不同的工作小组，致力于发现这些机构中的奴隶制遗留问题。

I believe universities play a big role in fighting racism. It is our job as academics to combat social inequalities in an intersectional manner. Additionally, universities need to work towards inclusivity, diversity, and, more importantly, fighting actively against racism. In the department of sociology where I am an Affiliate Lecturer, we have the Decolonize Sociology working group. This group was officially founded in October 2017. Its main goal is the decolonisation of the abovementioned department. In order todo this, the working group ‘collects suggestions and input about practical measures to decolonise the department’, ‘implement practical measures to decolonise all aspects of departmental life’, and assess, represent and collaborate with other decolonisation initiatives in and outside of Cambridge. Additionally, at the University of Cambridge we also have the End Everyday Racism initiative which is an independent research project developed by Dr Ella McPherson and Dr Monica Moreno Figueroa who are based at the department of Sociology. On their official website it is stated that this ‘project aims to develop our understanding of everyday racism with numeric, descriptive and geographic evidence, in order to build a collective case to support antiracism advocacy and social justice activism at the University and further afield’. Additionally, I think it is very important to hear the concerns of our students especially when discussing and fighting anti-Blackness in institutions. This is why the university and colleges at Cambridge are founding the different working groups that work towards uncovering the legacies of slavery in these institutions.

龚鹏程：您的研究涉及许多社会问题，尤其是种族主义。您认为学术研究可以如何影响政策制定者?其主要的挑战是什么?

散泽-芮薇拉：我认为，我们面临的最大挑战，是在种族主义中体制结构上的权利格局被禁锢。当一个机构的体制建立在继续排斥和歧视黑人和有色人种的种族主义的（做法和政策）基础上时，就很难打击种族主义。

作为学者，我们需要参与到积极分子、实践者、决策者和公众成员关于社会问题的持续对话中，比如种族主义的结构性动态，以及它们如何与其他核心压迫手段一起运作，比如性别歧视、性别暴力、残疾歧视、阶级歧视等等。

我认为，我们的工作应超越研究和教学，并应在政策和实践的影响下，积极帮助缓解紧张局势和打破世界上的不平等。

例如，我通过公费奖学金与许多学术界以外的人合作，在与肯特大学的Rebecca Ogden博士的合作下，我们决定制作Cuerpa Politica播客，这个播客讨论的是拉丁美洲对生育正义的追求，该地区的生育政策是世界上最具争议的政策之一。在这里，我们与学者、积极分子、从业者和实践者谈论他们在寻求生育自由方面的经验。

同样，我和剑桥大学的一群学者成立了生育正义研究网络，这是一系列的研讨会(对公众开放)，通过交叉视角来寻求生育正义，这使我们能够利用我们的平台向人们宣传社会不平等、生育不公正、环境种族主义、跨性别问题、性别暴力等问题。

I think our biggest challenge is the structural dynamics of power that are cemented in racism. It is very hard to combat racism when the structure of an institution is based on racist practices and policies that continue to marginalise and discriminate against Black people and people of colour. We, as academics, need to be involved in the constant conversations that activists, practitioners, policymakers, and members of the public have regarding social issues like the structural dynamics of racism and how they operate in conjunction with other axes of oppression like sexism, gender violence, ableism, classism, among others. I believe that our work should go beyond research and teaching, and should involve an active participation in the influence of policies and practices that help ease tensions as well as breaking the structural dynamics of inequalities in the world. For instance, I have collaborated-through public scholarship-with many people outside of academia. In collaboration with Dr Rebecca Ogden from the University of Kent, we decided to do the Cuerpa Politica podcast. This podcast deals with the quest for reproductive justice in Latin America which has one of the most contentious reproductive policies in the world. Here, we talk to academics, activists, practitioners and activists about their experiences in the quest for reproductive freedom. Similarly, a group of scholars from the University of Cambridge and I have founded the Reproductive Justice Research Network which is a series of seminars (which are open to the general public) about the quest for reproductive justice through intersectional lenses. This has allowed us to use our platform to inform people about issues around social inequalities, reproductive in-justices, environmental racism, trans issues, gender violence, among many others.

龚鹏程，1956年生于台北，台湾师范大学博士，当代著名学者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

办有大学、出版社、杂志社、书院等，并规划城市建设、主题园区等多处。讲学于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、台北、巴黎、日本、澳门等地举办过书法展。现为中国孔子博物馆名誉馆长、美国龚鹏程基金会主席。