龚鹏程x杜克-劳瑞杜｜对女人的积极歧视也应该消除

龚鹏程对话海外学者第七十六期：在后现代情境中，被技术统治的人类社会，只有强化交谈、重建沟通伦理，才能获得文化新生的力量。这不是谁的理论，而是每个人都应实践的活动。龚鹏程先生遊走世界，并曾主持过“世界汉学研究中心”。我们会陆续推出“龚鹏程对话海外学者”系列文章，请他对话一些学界有意义的灵魂。范围不局限于汉学，会涉及多种学科。以期深山长谷之水，四面而出。

Julia Duque-Lloredo （茱莉亚·杜克-劳瑞杜）

伦敦大学学院（UCL）研究员

龚鹏程：你好。你能描述一下您的研究领域吗？你认为在您的领域中最令人兴奋的一些进展是什么？你的研究主要目标是什么，你能描述一下几个重要的应用吗？

茱莉亚·杜克-劳瑞杜：龚教授，您好。我的研究，集中在组织力学方面。我们认为细胞是我们身体的第一个组织单位。下一级是（身体）组织，它由一组细胞组成，这些细胞通常是同类的，由不同的蛋白质组连接在一起。有些人研究单个细胞的力学，但从力学的角度来讲，我对上皮组织的整体行为感兴趣。更具体地说，我对上皮组织如何应对断裂的过程感兴趣。

例如，在胚胎的发育过程中，组织会受到不同力源，从而不得不承受压力和变形，这促使下一个发育阶段能够正常实现。另一个例子是我们的皮肤，皮肤是我们对所有的外部病原体的第一道主要保护屏障。

我很多工作都致力于了解在细胞膜下的一层的张力是什么。我所说的这层被称为细胞皮层，它是由不同的蛋白质组成的网状结构，这些蛋白质共同作用于细胞的形状，这反过来又为它们提供了承受力量的来源。

这项研究已被扩展到组织力学上。在这个层面上，必须考虑到将细胞连接在一起的第二组蛋白质：负责在组织中传递力量的蛋白质。然而，断裂的过程是一个多尺度的问题，我们在研究它时面临的一个巨大挑战是：如何在不同的尺度（分子、细胞、组织水平）之间架起桥梁，以及有非常少的对于从理论角度对断裂发生的非线性机制（在软组织中）的研究。

我对这个项目的目标，是了解支配上皮组织（如皮肤）断裂过程的机械参数，同时，对其进行生化鉴定。有几个原因让我觉得这真的很有趣：第一，了解并确定组织在形成伤口之前能承受多少力；第二，为了防止某些疾病，控制细胞形状和承载力的机械会被破坏。了解机械参数和分子过程是这些事件的基础，可能有助于阐明如何预防、逆转或减少带来的影响。

My research area focuses on tissue mechanics. We could consider that cells are the first unit of organization of our bodies. The next level of organization are tissues, which consist of group of cells, normally of the same kind, that are linked together by different groups of proteins. Some people study the mechanics of individual cells, but I am interested in the global behavior of epithelial tissues from a mechanical point of view. More specifically, I’m interested in how epithelial tissues respond to the process of fracture. For example, during the development of an embryo, tissues are subjected to different sources of force and deformation that must be withstand so that the next developmental stage can be properly achieved. Another example is our skin, which is the main first protection barrier we have against any external pathogen.

A lot of work within my field has been devoted to understanding what is the tension of a layer that underlies the membrane of cells has. This layer I am talking about is called the cortex of cells and it is a meshwork of different proteins which work together to give shape to the cells, which in turn, provides them with the sources to withstand forces. These studies have been extended to tissues mechanics. At this level, a second group of proteins involved in linking cells together must be taken into account: the ones responsible of transmitting the forces across the tissue. However, the process of fracture is a multi scale problem and one of the big challenges that we are facing to understand it is to bridge the different scales (molecular, cellular, tissue level) together with the fact that the non-linear regime at which fracture occurs (in soft tissues) has been very poorly studied from a theoretical point of view.

My goals for this project are to understand the mechanical parameters that govern the process of fracture in epithelial tissues (like the skin) together with a biochemical characterization of it. This is really interesting for different reasons: first, to understand and characterize how much force tissues can withstand before creating a wound and second, to prevent some type of illnesses where the machinery that controls the shape of the cells and is able to load force is disrupted. The understanding of what mechanical parameters and molecular processes underlie these types of events might help to shed some light on how to prevent, revert or decrease their effect.

龚鹏程：你研究中使用几种不同的方法，例如设计细胞生物学实验、使用遗传工具、图像分析和数据分析，这令人印象深刻。你能描述一下你在研究过程中使用的最重要的方法和工具吗？

茱莉亚·杜克-劳瑞杜：我想说的是，所有这些方法对于正确理解我们研究的问题都很重要。一旦我们有了想要解决的问题，首先要做的就是设计相应的实验。

我对两种主要类型的结果感兴趣。一方面，我想确定上皮组织在破裂前所能承受的力和变形。为了做到这一点，我们需要在一个特定的装置中培养组织，使我们能够在实验中测量力。同时，这个装置上有一个摄像头，我们可以用它来记录组织层面上的断裂演变。

另一方面，我想知道在细胞水平上正在发生什么。为了做到这一点，我们有相比之前具有更高分辨率的显微镜。在这种情况下，我们使用的是共焦显微镜，它允许我们拥有微米级的分辨率（比方说，一个细胞的大小约为10微米），这样我们就可以看到细胞内发生的事情。

不仅如此，我还会做荧光显微镜。这意味着我们能够观察到细胞内的特定蛋白质和成分，因为这些成分之前已经被贴上了荧光标签；用适当波长的激光照射，可以让我们看到它们。

一旦我们收集了所谓的“原始数据”，我们就需要对其进行分析。我们在寻找一些模式，我们试图看看它们是否遵循着某种类型的趋势，一个特定的规律等等。一旦数据分析完了，我们就进行统计测试，看看各组或各条件之间是否有任何明显的差异。

I would say that all these methods are important to get a proper understanding of the questions we have.

Once we have the questions we want to tackle, the first thing to do is to design the experiment accordingly. In my case, I am interested in two main type of results. On the one hand, I want to determine the forces and deformations that epithelial tissues can be subjected to before they rupture. In order to do this, we need to grow the tissues in a specific set up that allows us to measure the force during the experiment. At the same time, there is a camera attached to this set up with which we can record the evolution of fracture at the tissue level. On the other hand, I want to know what is happening at the cellular level. In order to do this, we have microscopes with higher resolution than the previous one I was mentioning. In this case, we use a confocal microscope that allows us to have a resolution of micrometres (let’s say that the size of a cell is around 10 micrometres) so that we can see what is happening inside the cells. Not only this, but also I do fluorescence microscopy. What this means is that we are able to look at specific proteins and components inside the cells. This is possible because these components have been previously labelled with a fluorescent tag; shining a laser with the adequate wavelength, will allow us to look at them. Once we have collected what we call the raw data, we need to analyse it. We look for some patterns, we try to see if they follow any type of trend, a specific law, etc. Once the data is analysed, we run statistical tests to see whether or not there is any significant difference between groups or conditions.

龚鹏程：对于考虑从事细胞生物学或生物物理学的学生，最重要的技能是什么？ 你对他们有什么建议吗？

茱莉亚·杜克-劳瑞杜：这个问题比较难回答。通常，我认为需要一些生物或者物理学背景。

一般来说，我觉得从物理、数学或工程学背景过渡到生物背景，要比其他专业背景容易一些。不过只要你对自己追求的事情，喜欢并有浓厚的兴趣，就没有什么事情是不能改变的。随着你的进步，你可以逐渐往其他方面发展。

以我为例，我本科专业是物理学，因为我非常喜欢数学，它可以作为解决现实生活中问题的工具。但我也一直被医学所吸引，所以我转向了生物学。

我最终将这两个学科结合起来，但这并不是我以前的计划。当我决定要学习物理学时，是因为从我高中老师的授课方式来看，我认为自己更象是一名物理老师，而不是生物老师。在那个时候，我总是喜欢用数学来解决问题，而不是学习生物。

我开始读博士时，我对苍蝇遗传学一无所知，我是边学边做的。这个是关于你愿不愿意去了解你所遇到的问题。如果你有什么不懂，要么你学习，要么你问别人，要么你去和别人合作。

现在，我们自己提出的大多数问题都需要来自多个学科的方法来解决，所以合作成为我们做得越来越多的事情（例如，私人公司将其业务的某些部分外包，我们去合作，我们有一个共同的出版物）。最后我发现，大多数时候，科学家都是问题解决者。当然，我们并不是什么都知道，但很多时候，如果我们遇到自己不知道的东西，我们会找到方法去理解它。

This is a difficult question. In general, I would say you need some type of biological/physics background. In general, I have the feeling is easier to transition from a physics/maths/engineer background towards a biological one than the other way around. However, nothing is written in gold as long as you have an avid interest in pursuing what you like to do. Then, you develop the rest as you progress. In my case, for example, I did my undergraduate in Physics, because I really liked maths, and the tools it provided to solve problems in real life. At the same time, I was always attracted to Medicine so that’s why I moved towards Biology. I’ve ended up combining both of them, but it was not something previously planned. When I decided I wanted to study Physics it was because I was seeing myself more as a Physic teacher than a Biology one just from the way my high school teachers where giving their lessons. At that time, I always preferred solving problems with maths than having to study Biology…

When I started my PhD I knew nothing about fly genetics and I learnt as I was doing it. It’s a matter of being willing to understand the questions you have. If you don’t know something, either you learn it, you ask someone else or you collaborate. Nowadays, most of the questions we pose ourselves need from a multidisciplinary approach so collaboration is something that we do more and more (as, for example, private companies outsource some part of their business, we collaborate and we have a shared publication). In the end I find that, most of the times, scientists are problem-solvers. For sure we don’t know everything, but many times, if we don’t know something on our own, we will find the way to understand it.

龚鹏程：对女科学家地位的讨论越来越多。作为一名女科学家，你如何看待女科学家的角色和地位，她们具体面临哪些挑战？

茱莉亚·杜克-劳瑞杜：科学界的女性，面临着大多数女性在任何其他类型的工作中所面临的问题之一，就是她们所占据的高级职位数量很少。大多数高级职位主要由男性占据，这与历史有直接关系，因为我们习惯于在这些级别上看到男性而不是女性，最终，导致了改变这种情况会感觉不舒服。

平均来说，女性在生命科学研究领域的水平要高于男性，而这一点就更加引人注目了。然而，当你的位置越高，涉及到成为小组领导或教授时，这种情况就会倒置。这是我们社会应该重新考虑的问题。

如今，在一些地方，我们可以看到对妇女有积极歧视 (积极歧视是指你优待具有受保护特征的人，但不是因为他们的能力)；这是第一步，但我们不应该只停留在这个层面。在许多情况下，这只是为了给某个大学或机构一个好的形象而做的事情。事情必须从更早的阶段进行改变。我们应该从消除我们强加给孩子的标准化的性别角色模型开始。为什么一个女孩不能成为物理学家？为什么她不能在工作中领导一个团队？这一切背后的真正问题是什么？

还有一点需要考虑的是，从历史上看，妇女负责照顾孩子。这一点与我上面解释的并不相悖。科学是一项要求很高的工作，当需要照顾孩子的时候，如果伴侣不是很愿意分担的话，可能就会有点困难。然而，我相信这不应该仅仅局限于父母，一些机构在这方面也应该有发言权。

I think women in science face one of the problems that most women have in any other type of job, and this is the little number of high-level positions they occupy. The fact that most of high positions are largely occupied by men is something directly related to history in the sense that we are used to rather see men than women at these levels and in the end, changing this it is uncomfortable.

This is even more striking when you realise that, on average, there is a higher level of women in life science studies than men. However, as you go higher in the hierarchy, when it comes to become a group leader/professor, this value gets inverted. This is something that we, as a society, should reconsider. Nowadays in some places we can see that there is a positive discrimination towards women; this is a very first step, but we should not remain just at that level. In many occasions it is something done just to give a good appearance to a certain university or institution. Things must change from a very early stage. We should start by removing the standardize role models that we impose to our children. Why a girl cannot become a Physicist? Why can’t she be in charge of a group of people at work? What is the real problem behind all this?

Also something to take into account which is not separated from what I’ve explained above, is the fact that women are the ones that also historically, have been the ones in charge of their children. Science is a very demanding job that, when childcare comes into place, might be a bit difficult to combine if the corresponding partner is not very willing to share it. I believe however that it should not be something just constrained to the parents, but that the institutions should have a say at this respect.

龚鹏程：你曾在西班牙、布鲁塞尔、加利福尼亚工作和学习，现在你已经在伦敦工作了5年。你能说一说你是怎么来到伦敦？你以前去过亚洲国家吗？你会考虑在一个亚洲国家工作一段时间吗？

茱莉亚·杜克-劳瑞杜：我读博士期间，我的职位可以让我在国外的实验室进行实习和工作。我申请了两个地方，一个在芝加哥，另一个在伦敦。但我觉得芝加哥有点远，我更愿意留在欧洲。另外，在芝加哥，我的课题是从计算角度出发去研究生物学，而在伦敦，我将使用不同的模型系统去做研究，为此我极为痴迷。因此，我决定来到伦敦，准确地说是来到我现在工作的实验室。

总的来说，这是一个非常好的经历。实验室里的人对我很好，我也喜欢伦敦这座城市。我来自西班牙的马德里，那里足够大，但没有伦敦那么大。在UCL实验室里有更多的自由，这也是我非常喜欢的。

在我博士论文完成前，我有一个很好的机会，在波士顿附近的MBL做了个为期6周的课程。我参加了不同的项目，并有机会认识不同的小组和成员。其中一个是我在加州理工学院的小组。在我博士毕业后，我还考虑过申请在那里做博士后，但我发现加州离我的家人太远了。因此，在我完成博士学业的时，我决定至少要在研究领域继续呆久一点，这是我还留在伦敦UCL这个实验室的原因。当时我只打算呆一小段时间，结果现在已经呆超过4年了。

我从来没有去过亚洲，但我很想去看看。对我来说，亚洲是一个很大的未知数，因为我发现它真的很大。所以，我想国家之间一定有很多差异。我想我应该可以在一些国家工作一段时间，但不是所有的国家，也不是一直在那里工作。我不希望离西班牙很远，因为那里有我的家人。

During my PhD, my fellowship allowed me to do an internship in a laboratory abroad. I applied to two places, one in Chicago and another one in London. At that time I found that Chicago was maybe a bit far and I rather preferred to stay in Europe (–at that time!–). Also, the topic I would be working on Chicago was developmental Biology from a computational side of view whereas in London I was going to be using a different model system, which is something that really attracted me at that time. Hence, I decided to come to London, precisely to the lab I am working at the moment.

In general, it was a really good experience. The people in the lab were very nice to me, and I liked the city. I was coming from Madrid –Spain– which is big enough but not as much as London. Here I had more freedom in the lab and it was something I really enjoyed as well. Before the end of my PhD I had the big opportunity of doing a 6-week course at the MBL an institution near Boston. I took part on different projects and had the opportunity to meet different groups. One of them was the group I was with at Caltech, just after finishing my PhD. I think I could have applied for a postdoc there but I found that California was too far away from my family. So then, by the time I was finishing my PhD, I decided I wanted to continue in research for at least a bit longer and one of my main options was this lab in London (a bit longer has been now over 4 years!).

I have never been to Asia but I would love to visit it. For me it is a big unknown as I find it really big and so, I guess there are many differences between countries. I could work for some time in some countries (not all of them for sure) but it would be for a fixed time. In the end, I don’t want to be very far away from Spain which is where my family lives.

龚鹏程，1956年生于台北，台湾师范大学博士，当代著名学者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

办有大学、出版社、杂志社、书院等，并规划城市建设、主题园区等多处。讲学于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、台北、巴黎、日本、澳门等地举办过书法展。现为中国孔子博物馆名誉馆长、美国龚鹏程基金会主席。