龚鹏程x伊斯梅尔｜研究阿尔茨海默症，也说脱口秀

龚鹏程对话海外学者第二十期：在后现代情境中，被技术统治的人类社会，只有强化交谈、重建沟通伦理，才能获得文化新生的力量。这不是谁的理论，而是每个人都应实践的活动。龚鹏程先生遊走世界，并曾主持过“世界汉学研究中心”。我们会陆续推出“龚鹏程对话海外学者”系列文章，请他对话一些学界有意义的灵魂。范围不局限于汉学，会涉及多种学科。以期深山长谷之水，四面而出。

奥萨玛·伊斯梅尔（Ozama Ismail）

奥萨玛·伊斯梅尔（Ozama Ismail）：

英国伦敦大学学院，高级生物医学成像中心，高级研究员。

伦敦大学学院博士（神经科学）；研究运营经理博士（高级生物医学成像中心）。

致力于阿尔茨海默病（老年痴呆）的研究，生理学，市场/公关。

龚鹏程：您最近的研究重点是什么，您研究的领域目前趋势是什么？ 是什么让您对阿尔茨海默病的研究感兴趣？

奥萨玛·伊斯梅尔：龚教授，您好。我目前正在研究中风和阿尔茨海默病之间的关系。我主要研究人体中风后大脑中的血流是如何变化的，以及这些变化是如何引发阿尔茨海默病的发生。在此之前，我还研究大脑中的废物清除系统是如何引发阿尔茨海默病的。我使用医学成像和实验性的外科手术技术来研究这一课题。

现阶段，我对在了解人体衰老后大脑中的血流变化这一课题非常感兴趣。人体衰老后，大脑的血流会出现变化，有些最初的变化极有可能在后期引发阿尔茨海默病。

我之所以对这个领域感兴趣是因为我在本科学习期间对神经科学非常感兴趣，本科毕业后，我从事了与全身成像有关的工作。 目前我研究的这个领域能够将我对神经科学和全身成像的兴趣完美地结合在一起。

I currently research the relationship between strokes and Alzheimer’s disease. I study how blood flow changes in the brain can happen after a small stroke and how it might cause Alzheimer’s disease. Before this, I was studying how waste clearance systems in the brain can contribute to Alzheimer’s disease. I use medical imaging and experimental surgical techniques to study this. There is a lot of interest in understanding blood flow changes in the aging brain in the field at the moment, as these changes are the earliest changes that happen in the brains of people who go on to develop Alzheimer’s disease. I went into this field because I was interested in neuroscience during my undergraduate studies and was doing whole body imaging in my work after undergrad. So this field allowed me to combine my interest in neuroscience and imaging.

龚鹏程：阿尔茨海默症的主要病因是什么？ 应如何预防？

奥萨玛·伊斯梅尔： 目前，患阿尔茨海默病的原因尚不清楚。因为突发性的病例比重很大，神经科学家仍在试图找出其中的原因。这病非常复杂，是由很多潜在因素相互叠加而导致的一种疾病。其因素包括：遗传、生活方式、心脏健康、社交活动、教育等社会经济因素。阿尔茨海默病虽然无法治愈，但是，保持良好的心脏健康对于在以后的生活中延迟或预防这种疾病至关重要。所以，每天运动一会儿是预防或延缓老年痴呆的最好方法。我们提倡人们可以健康地变老，这是最为理想的状态，这对于预防阿尔茨海默疾病很有效。此外，经常运动也非常有帮助，因此，我们提倡每个人都可以在家或社区中做适当的运动。

The reasons why people get Alzheimer’s disease are still very unclear. A large proportion of the disease comes about sporadically, and neuroscientists are still working to find out why. It is a complex disease and there are so many possible reasons which can compound with each other to cause the disease. These include genetics, lifestyle, heart health, social interaction, education, and other socioeconomic factors. There is still no cure for the disease, however, maintaining good heart health is vital to delay or prevent it later in life. So, a little bit of daily exercise is the best way to prevent or delay dementia in old age. There is a push to help people age healthily in order to prevent the disease and exercise is one simple way to help as everyone can do a little bit of it in their homes or in their communities.

龚鹏程：学术界和私营部门的阿尔茨海默病研究之间的主要区别是什么？

奥萨玛·伊斯梅尔：在学术界，你可以更自由地以自己的方式和步调规划研究。学术界为学者提供了相应的支持和保障，学者可以得到工作和资金的支持，不断地提升。在私营部门，则需要向利益相关者报告，他们可以在向你提供资金的同时决定研究的方向，相对而言，研究的自由度受到了局限。

然而，在私营部门，发表论文的压力较小，而且他们的经历报酬通常比学术界要高，因为私营部门为你所创造的价值付费。与学术界相比，在私营部门工作也让人们有了更多的责任感，对自己的行为负责。

不过，无论是学术界还是私营部门，目前两者的差异性还不大，更具有普遍性的研究。

In academia, you have more freedom to direct research in your own way and at your own pace. Academia also has a set track on how you progress and relies on you to find the funding for your work. In the private sector, you have to report to stakeholders who can decide which direction to take it in as they provide the funding. However, there is less pressure to publish in the private sector and they pay better than academia as they pay you for what you are worth. The private sector is also better at holding people more accountable for their behaviour and actions than academia. These differences are not specific to Alzheimer’s disease, and I don’t think there are any specific differences to the field – it is more universal.

龚鹏程：谈谈您在 STEM 的工作经历，STEM是一个面向少数族裔背景的科学、技术、工程和医学专业人士的网络。科学家们在这些组织和项目中工作有多重要？

奥萨玛·伊斯梅尔：STEM 是少数族裔、从事不同科学领域研究的科学家组成的一个社会群体。对于我和我的联合发起人来说，组建这个团体的意义非常重要，因为非白人科学家在学术界的代表性非常差。目前，西方学术界在培养、保护和发展少数群体科学家方面的工作做得并不到位。因此，切实地确保来自少数族裔的科学家可以公平地参与科研工作，提升科学研究领域包容性，才能最终实现科学真正地为不同的人口/社区服务。这也就是我和我的联合创始人成立STEM的初衷。

我们定期举办专门针对少数族裔科学家的活动，以满足他们不同的需求，从而能够帮助他们在职业和研究领域取得更大的进步。通过这样的方式，我们创造了一个安全的研究空间，我们把那些由于不同原因和不同形式被排挤在外的科研人员聚集在一起。

科学研究领域的多样性将能促使人们提出更为全面的问题，由此产生更多新的假设，最终产生更多的新想法， 这对于那些现阶段还没有取得研究突破的病症研究，例如阿尔茨海默病研究领域，尤为重要。

Minorities in STEM is a collective of diverse individuals in science. It was very important for me and my co-founders to form this group because representation of non-white individuals is so poor in academia. Academia also does not do enough to protect and progress minoritized scientists. So, it is important for scientists on the ground to engage in this kind of work to improve equity and inclusion, so that science is done in a way that truly serves all aspects of the population / community. This is what me and my co-founders did when we formed the group. We have put on various events that are specifically tailored to the needs of minority scientists in order to help them progress through their careers and fields. In doing so, we were able to create safe spaces and include people who are usually excluded because of the rigid and fixed way in which science is conducted. Diversity in science will result in more well-rounded questions being asked and hypothesis being formed and will result in more ideas being put forward. This is especially important for problems like Alzheimer’s disease that is still racing for a cure.

龚鹏程：除了科学，您还是一名脱口秀演员和内容创作者。 你如何使所写的科学内容变得有趣和更容易被接受？

奥萨玛·伊斯梅尔：我喜欢从非常个人的角度去谈论科学，和大家分享我的亲身体验，我在撰写和打磨内容的时候也不想只吸引精英们的兴趣。这就是我认为科学更容易被人们获得的方式。

坦诚地谈论作为少数族裔科学家从事科学研究的经历也很重要，这样更多的少数族裔科学家可以以此为参考，以便他们更有准备地进入到科学研究领域。

因此，当我撰写脱口秀内容时，我总是从非常个人的角度和诚实的态度去谈论科学内容。我还将这一点运用到了我的播客中，我和我的主持人从流行文化、历史和新闻的角度来探讨科学话题。

我们从批判的角度去解读科学如何为公众服务，同时也揭示科学是如何对某些群体造成了伤害，因为科学本身仍然会受到政治和经济的影响。一旦我们选择了一个主题并编写了内容，我们就会以朋友间对话的方式录制下来，在对话中，我们还会加入大量的数据以支持我们的观点。

这是一个相当有趣的过程，因为它允许我在我所熟知的领域之外进行研究，可以支持我作为科学研究员和演讲者的身份。

I talk about science from a very personal perspective and share it in exactly the way I experience it, rather than make sure it is polished and presented in a way that only appeals to the elites. This is how I think science can be made more accessible. Being honest about the experience of doing science as a minority is also important, so people are better prepared to engage with it and feel like it is made into a space that is for them. So, I always talk about it from a very personal and honest perspective when I create content for stand-up. I apply this to the podcast I do as well and myself and my co-hosts discuss scientific topics from a pop-culture angle as well as from a historic and journalistic angle. We examine science to show how it serves the public but also to reveal how it sometimes does harm to certain communities because it can still be influenced by politics and economics. Once we pick a topic and write an episode, we then record it as a conversation between friends, with facts backed by researched data. It is a fun process as it allows me to do research outside of my immediate field, but still apply my skills as a science researcher and presenter.

龚鹏程，1956年生于台北，台湾师范大学博士，当代著名学者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

办有大学、出版社、杂志社、书院等，并规划城市建设、主题园区等多处。讲学于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、台北、巴黎、日本、澳门等地举办过书法展。现为美国龚鹏程基金会主席。