军旅抒情的审美导向（上篇/中英文对照）

【HUMANITY AND ART INTERVIEWS】

AESTHETIC DIRECTION OF MILITARY LYRICISM IN THE LYRIC HISTORY

军旅抒情的审美导向(上篇/中英文对照）

QIAOYAN: MILITARY LYRICISM AS CARRIER OF POETIC ENGINEERING SCIENCE

HUMANITY AND ART INTERVIEW OF 21ST CENTURY /ISW

Zhang Wenzhe : poet, literary theorist ,compere of ISW, former editor -in chief of Poetry Journal Yellow Liver

Qiao Yan: former deputy director of PLA press, executive chairman of International Pen club For Chinese Poets

峭岩: 军旅抒情作为诗学工程学的载体

21世纪人文艺术访谈/ISW(国际学术话语/导言选摘）

■章闻哲：诗人、文论家、《导言选摘》主持人，《黄河诗报》前主编

■峭 岩：原解放军出版社副社长、国际华文诗人笔会常务主席

Zhang Wenzhe: Hello, Mr Qiaoyan!

Haven’t talking with you for a long time. It may be a rigmarole of our opening of the communication.——I have been wondering, what is the entry point of making a interview with you. You are an author with many works to your credit, whatever the time that you spent on the poetry ,or the experiences you accumulated in this area, or anything you’ve undergone, it could be described with words of which is vast and extensive. Relevant to this level, it is only a tiny area totally that have I made comment and attention to your works, even if add the estimation by Mr Ludao .

What my mean is , that the debates and remark about you from outside, is no where near what have been written by you own with quantity and width. So , when facing such a breadth and extensity, we have to be special ,so that wen can close to and focuse on the topic of which is most needed by us . As we see ,in the nearest situation of poetic circles, there is no activity to chase, what is the confrontation between the tradition and creation ,and what have such confrontation made a certain situation of poetic writing or a kind of poetic style trend? It is more and more implicit in a lot of journals. It is just proved my diagnose for our time however, in my work The Society of Prosaic Poetry——that we are just living in the transit time,and the literary will always show a trait of being diversity and synthesis by melting with aesthetics of ancient times and now days, and practise. Of this point, I have thought ,that there is such comprehensive character in your poem, especially in you long poems. Could you please talk about whether there are possibilities to transcend such synthesis of now days or try to make a new turn, according to your experiences on creation and what you have observed in our circles?

■章闻哲：峭岩老师，您好！

很久未与您聊了。我们今天的开头可能会有点冗长——我一直在琢磨，如果与您做一期访谈，切入点该是什么，您在文学创作上也算是著作等身了，无论您在诗歌上投入的时间，还是积累的经验，抑或是您在诗坛经历的人事，都堪以浩瀚辽阔来形容。相对于此，我个人曾经对您的作品做过的评价，甚至加上绿岛和其他一些重要的评论家对您的作品所作的关注与评论，总括起来，在内容上也只是很狭小的一块。

我的意思是，外界对你的谈论，还是不及你自己如果来谈的内容要广阔得多。所以，面对这样一种广阔性，我们的切入点变得不得不有些特殊，以便我们谈论的可以是一个切近当下，或切近我们最想要聚焦其上的主题。在最近的一种诗坛状态里，流派的一种活跃性已然无迹可寻，传统与创新到底在一种什么对峙中，造就了当下的一种诗歌写作状态，或一种诗歌风格趋向，这在许多刊物中，越来越体现出一种未明性。而这正好印证我在《散文诗社会》一书中对我们这个时代的诊断——我们处在一种过渡社会时期，文学在这种过渡期常常会呈现出结合古今中外审美与实践的多样性与综合性，关于这一点，我曾经认为，在您的诗歌里也有这种综合性的体现，尤其是长诗方面，更是如此。您能否结合您自身的创作体会，以及您所观察的诗坛状况，谈谈当下有没有可能超越这种综合性，尝试一种新的转折？

Qiaoyan: it’s almost the common clamour of our time,that the demands of creation , turning, and transcendence. It is also the time of which emerges dissymmetry between the physics and cultures, when enter into the 21ST Century ,with development unprecedentedly of economy and guiding by the high tech, and then with the urging and imaging for the cultures and spirits . we were impacted intensely especially since opening. We have to admit that , at the start of the development of our state, the traditional inheritance of Tang and Song dynasty, and the poet style of when creation of socialistic nation , were dominated exclusively in our state. Whitman, Pushkin, and Baudelaires’ works only be of minority’s business by translation. After opening however, especially emerged the We-Media, the west culture elements swarmed into the nation from a variety of ways,and finally became shared by public no more the luxury sharing by minority.

■峭 岩：创新、转折、超越，几乎成了这个时代的诗人一致的呼声。这也是进入二十一世纪后，经济空前发达，加之在高科技的引导下，人们的生活有了崭新的内容，随之，对文化精神的追求愈加迫切和幻想。这就产生了物质与文化的不对称性。尤其是开放以来，西方文化的冲击更烈。不得不承认，在我国发展的初期，传统文化〔诗歌范畴〕唐宋的遗产以及战后初创时期的豪迈向上的诗风是独霸天下的。西方的惠特曼、普希金 、波德莱尔们只是通过翻译加入，那也只是少数人的事情。而开放后，尤其自媒体后，西方的文化涌入，通过各种渠道进入，已不是少数精英人的奢侈，是大众的分享了。

ZWZ: I noticed the way that you express the time in the form “the post-war construction during initial stage”, it remind me of your own manner which maybe put the creation in international context to observe. In the context of international critics, usually, when we talk about the “Post-war construction of initial stage”, may refer to “after the world war II”, also may it point to “ after the civil war”. When we absorb the two implications into our relations with creations,we may gain the richer vision and deeper and broader history ,therefore can we got encouragements to interpret our own creation. If on this level, we talk about the creation or poetry again, how will you think of the contemporary poems from such large perspective?

■章闻哲：我注意到您说到“战后初创期”，这个时间表述方式，让我想到您也许是把创作放在一种国际语境中来观察的。在国际文学评论语境中，通常，说到“战后初创”，可能是指二战以后，也可能是指内战。当我们同时将两种内涵摄入到我们的创作相关中时，我们可能有了更丰富的视野和更宏深的历史，敢来解注我们自身的创作。假如就在这个基础上，我们再来谈创作或诗歌，您对于这种大视野中的同时代诗歌有什么理解或曾经的体验？

Qiaoyan: I have raised the point of “ the asymmetry of culture” above, under that condition, there is basically a common situation insofar as international and national areas, namely generated an confrontation between the new and old, the tradition and moderns. To say the poem, because the special politic environment give birth to the special group, namely a massive power grown from the war for years and initial stage of construction the socialistic nation, they did not want to break the inherent mode , rather they were willing to step after the time with old manner. But another part of people( academism and new generations) tried their best to excluded it, attempted to find a new path .so as they went respectively with attitude like “I take the path what I have stepped on”. time will check all, today, as we can see, there is a ecology of poetry with bad and good, or mud and sand intermingled.

This situation emerges from two respects: one is absence of direction. The poems with major melody are not be well respected by the authority. Another is the inexpensive of the poem, young poets are lack of poetic culture. I haven’t been aware of how can those obscene poems embark on the sacred poetic journal?

■峭 岩：我上面说到“文化的不对称性”， 在这样的情景下，国际范围内与国内基本有一个共同的情况，也就是产生了新与旧、传统与现代的对峙。就诗歌而言，由于特殊的政治环境形成的特殊群体，即多年战争中及建国初热潮时期成长起来的一大批力量，他们不愿意打破故有的模式，愿意在老路上跟进时代。而另一部分人〔学院派、新生代〕却极力排斥，企图寻找一条新的路径。就这么各自“我行我素 ”地走着。时间检验一切，今天就出现了泥沙俱下、良莠不分的诗歌生态。

此种局面的发生来自两个方面 ：一是导向缺位。主旋律诗歌履履不爽，不被“权威”待见。二是诗歌的“廉价”，青年诗人缺少诗学修养。我一直不明白，那些淫秽的诗是怎么登上大雅之堂的？

ZWZ: The two respects that you’ve posed are very representative, in my opinion, the former represents the disappearing of ideological dominance; the second represents liberalization expansion of personality of creator. When we speak of “expansion”, there maybe not totally derogatory, but to describe the objective content of all creation personality formation. Just in this objective inflation, the debates of poetics theory between the right and left are day after day conspicuous. What do you think of where the root of culture for poetics theory is?

■章闻哲：您所说的这两个方面，很有代表性，在我的理解中，前一个方面代表了意识形态主导性的消失；第二个方面，则代表了主导性消失之后创作个体的个性自由化膨胀。当我们说到“膨胀”时，也许并不完全是贬义的，而是形容整个创作个性阵容的客观容量。但就在这种客观膨胀中，诗学的左右争端也日益显著。您觉得诗学修养的“根”在什么地方？

Qiaoyan: I have tried my best to keep awake with the confrontation of tradition and modern, I mean that tradition is the root, while modern concerns is the genre, the stream, the problem of which the two make their lives commonly.

Of course, breaking the bar that constructed by the remarkable tradition, is also my task . in my past works published, I had been underscoring the “breaking”, Lie Dao had point out such facts in his work The aesthetic evolution and breakout of Chao Yan’s Long Poems. There is obvious track of this “breakout”spirit in my long poems and short poems. You also made a estimation about it in you work The opposite bank of literature: From genre of “HuaJian” to poems of Chao Yan. You proved my turning of early poetic writing with quantities of evidence. It is like that I was awakened by a poem dream in one night. The cultural vision of the new time impacted me, I was desiring to be emancipated from the old rules or views of literature,to accept a current of fresh and bright wind.

Of course , this change derived first from my acceptance for west poetry and the impacts of poets during the time of “Wu Si”, Shakespeare, Shelley,Pushkin, Tagore, Xu Zhimo, Dai Wangsu, Xi Murong, include military poet li Ying... and also the impact from Misty Poetry, and the challenge from youngster aside me. All of these which imposed on me made a fission reaction in me.

■峭 岩：传统与现代的对峙中，我一直保持清醒。那就是传统是根，现代是流。是两者共进共生的问题。

当然，在传统的辉煌下突围，是我一直的努力。在以往的出版著作中，我一直强调“突围”。比如绿岛写我的专著《峭岩长诗审美嬗变与突围》，就是表达我摆脱过去的书写习惯，决意创造一个新的面貌而做的努力。这种突围精神在我的长诗和短诗里都有明显的痕迹。关于这一点，你在写我的专著《文学彼岸——从花间派到峭岩诗歌》中，以大量事实论证了我早期诗歌的转型。那是我一夜之间诗梦惊醒了我，新时代的文化愿景冲击了我，我决意从老的陈规旧律束缚中解放出来，接受一股清新的、亮丽的清风。

当然，这个转变是我接受了西方诗歌乃至五四时期一批诗人的影响 ，莎士比亚、雪莱、普希金、泰戈尔、徐志摩，戴望舒、席慕容，包括军旅诗人李瑛…… 都影响了我。当然，还有“朦胧诗”潮的冲击，我身边一帮青年军旅诗人的挑战。所有这些，从四面八方的夹击，促使我裂变。

ZWZ: You are always a creator, it is a fact has been seen in my studies with short -term and small scale. You are enough to be respected by admitting frankly that you were impacted by the west and east thoughts trends which caused a fission of cognition of poetic theory and thoughts. Because among it, the opposition between the boundaries of ideologies or cultures, has been in a trend of melting, a certain kind of true development of literature and art with which all flowers bloom together, is hided in such transformation of your thoughts. What do you think of which and where is the most creative and converting form in your works.

■章闻哲：您一直是一位创新者，这在我短期和狭小范围的研究里，是已然了解的一个事实。你坦然承认自己受到东西方思潮的冲击，而产生了一种诗学认知和思想的裂变，这本身足以令人敬佩。因为在这当中，意识形态的界限或者文化的一种对峙，已然处于一种消融趋势，一种真正的百花齐放的文艺发展，蕴藏于您这样的思想境界的转变中。您觉得您最引以为豪的一种创新转变在于哪一种具体的形式里？

Qiaoyan: first of all, to consider my construction of the whole creation, it need to assimilate the vision of love into the military writing as a compensation to military itself, to enliven the military life. For example, I Sew A Pair Of Eyes, On A Military Post: it’s her ,it’s her, it’s her/ leeked out from the top of the cloud/ cast into the window of the watch house/ to stare my hot barrel /peep at my poetic book lying under my pillowcase/ what is glisten is her smile/ what is flickering is her greeting/I have seen her in the dream of September/I sew her at the stage decorated fully with dewdrops/a pair of eyes with love overflowing/ fly across a certain span/cast his eyes to the soldier/ its affection, its fearless, its wisdom, its strategy/ are all packed into the soldier’s heart. “writing love, is not the bitter love any longer, obviously, it have had the tension of willpower, and expanding of love itself.

Now we can say, I am the first one to bring the loving poetry into the military poetic art. It doesn’t mean that there is no other military poet in my contemporaries or in the past to write loving poetry, It just means others are accidentally, while I am collectivized. In a certain period, I published constantly four collections of loving poems, which included Seventy Loving Poems of Qiao Yan,; The Hermaphrodite Brig of Love; This Heart, That Heart; and Peaceful Grass and Secluded loving. The emergence of these poems to a certain degree had transformed or determined my direction of writing later.

■峭 岩：

首先从内结构上破，把爱情的视角引进军营，覆盖我的思维，这样一来，素常的军旅生活动情起来。《在哨所，我看到一双眼睛》：“是她，是她，是她、/从云端泄露/投入哨所的窗口/凝视我发烫的枪管/窥探我枕下的诗本/闪亮的是微笑/打闪的是问候//九月的梦里见过她/缀满露珠的阶梯上见过她/一双溢满爱的眼睛/飞越了一个跨度/将目光投向一位士兵/那情，那胆，那智，那谋/都装进了一个士兵的胸口。”写爱情，已不是单线条的“苦恋”，显然有了爱情的扩大与意志的张力。

可以说，我是第一个把爱情诗大胆引进军旅诗的。说第一并不是在我之前或同期没有军旅诗人写爱情诗，他们是偶然的，我是集团式的。那个时间段，我连续出版了爱情诗集《峭岩情诗七十首》《爱的双桅帆 》《这颗心，那颗心》《幽幽绿地幽幽情》，这些诗歌的出现，某些方面，转变或定位了我今后的诗歌走向。

ZWZ: The gap between military traditional lyric and the pure, but not the symbolized loving poetry, maybe, is obviously, how do you think of or is there any experience of creation to closing such crack track?

■章闻哲：纯粹的，而不是象征的爱情诗与我国军旅抒情传统之间的裂痕，或许又是显而易见的，在如何弥合这种裂痕上，您有什么创作体会？

Qiaoyan: The famous poetry critic Wu Sijing had written an article which titled with Chao Yan And The New Change Of Contemporary Military Poems, published by Literature and Art Journal. He talked about the variation of my poems, and admitted my contribution to the military poetry for its breaking out of the tradition’s encirclement. He said , “he wrote out the worrying, anguish and paradox, that is less aware of by general military poets, its genuine self-dissection, frankly self-accusation, show his spirit is rising toward a free cumstance, I believe that , the poet’s soul would sublimed after constantly psychologically struggling and clarity rite. The poet’s military poetic work would therefore get further varied ,and leave fine expectation to readers.

As we all know, it is deeply rooted in my creation that the impression of the Chinese traditional poetry and military poems., in addition to the impact of culture of special fiery-hot times, they had made a great resistance for my fission on creation. The reality tell me that I must make changing, if the problems on thoughts were solved, then there still left a problem on the skill level. I broke my writing way first , that means the variation of the language manner. No more to continue the writing mode of symmetry with four or six sentences. Just break those leaves and branches of fence, no more to pursue the great motif, no more to represent of which show graphical method like, and also formally not always do rhyme, just enter with a certain free mode. It is strikingly reflected in my work titled with The Sonnet of Mincing Clappers For Life.

The Sonnet of Mincing Clappers for Life thoroughly exchanged my past writing manner, for example: I slipped from the Eve’s grasp / therefore I had a world of dream like/ the world gave me the happiness/ Originally delivered a hoe to me/therefore I started to recognize the characters of the five grains/and later, it just gave me a gun/ So that I learned the poses of protection and vigilance./ ultimately, passed on to me was a pen/ I just depicted out a lot of mountains and livers that are extending /the star and moon are my long hair hanging down from my shoulder/kindness and loyalty are my great root.

■峭 岩： 著名诗评家吴思敬曾写过一篇文章《峭岩与当代军旅诗的新变 》，发表在《文艺报》上。其中谈到我的诗歌变化，他肯定了我的“突围”为军旅诗做出了贡献。他说 “在《生命散板十四行》中，他写出了一般军旅诗人很少注意到的内心的焦灼、痛苦与矛盾，那种真诚的自剖，坦率的自责，显示了他心灵正在向一个自由的境界飞升。相信经过不断地心灵的搏斗与洗礼之后，诗人的精神境界将会进一步得以升华，因之诗人的军旅诗之作还会产生新的变化，这将给读者留下美好的期待 。”

我们知道，中国诗歌乃至军旅诗的影响，于我是根深蒂固的。加上火热的特殊年代赋予我的文化影响，为我的“嬗变”加大了阻力。现实告诉我必须改变。思想问题解决了，剩下的是技术层面，我首先打破书写方式，即语言方式。不再沿袭四六句的对称写法，破掉那些枝枝叶叶的藩篱，在题目上不再求大，不去追求图解式的叙述，形式上不一味追求押韵，以一种自由的形式进入。这在《生命散板十四行》一大组诗中表现的尤为突出。

《生命散板十四行》彻底打破了我过去的书写方式 ，比如这样的句子：“我从夏娃的指缝间滑落/于是，我有了梦幻般的世界/这个世界给了我欢乐 /最初，交给我一杆锄/我认识了五谷的性格/以后，又交给我一杆枪/我学会了警惕和捍卫的姿势/最后，交到我手上一支笔/我画出了很多行走的山脉和河流/星月是我披肩的长发/忠善是我庞大的根。”

ZWZ: Since the birth of the new poetry of China, the updated genres as an another reflection of creation, always becomes a track of indelible in the historical evolution because of its endeavor for conceptualizing, but some also may be inundated by history. How do you think of those genres?

■章闻哲：自中国新诗诞生以来，更叠的流派作为创新的另一种体现，总是因为它的一种概念化的努力而成为一种历史沿革中不可磨灭的轨迹，但有的也可能会被历史淹没。能否谈谈您对流派的看法？

Qiaoyan: The genres and a certain of generation of a new style of poem of what you have mentioned, integrally ,I just thought it as follow: history tell us one more time that , an emergence of a new genre and its taking to the stage stably, needs a abundant support of society and the main thoughts stream’s recognition. Since the birth of the new poetry of China, there have emerged a lot of genres included Attempt, Life, July, Filmy, Realism, modernism, Rubbish Faction, and so on. They respectively represent the situation and direction of Chinese poem in a certain period , and vanished one by one with historic streams. We can say that , the genres have their contemporaneity and stage, to say the “July” for example, it refers to a batch of poets and writers who are the most important authors of journals July and Hope mainly edited by Hu Feng, included Liu Yuan, Are Rong, Zeng Zuo, Niu Han, formed the most significant realistic poetic genres during the war anti-JAP,and the war of Emancipation. The genre July provided the powerful spirit aid in the war time, and they are representatives of Chinese new poetry all through a long subsequent time period. With transferring of national task , the July vanished by the time, but the soul of some of these poets, still existed in nowadays with their poetic assertion, and be passed on to another generation.

The genres of nowadays, are a little bit different with the past, in the situation of none- satisfied with the reality, respectively raised their banners , such like Li Hua , Yang Gao, and Fei Fei-sm(or Negationism) and so so , not to mention the “writing for the private parts”. genres of poet circle show somewhat means of “I walked on to the stage as soon as somebody others has performed”, “performed like Trotting Horse Lamp”, Is due to be a short life of itself. The basic reason of such symptom, is their content of presentation and assertion are opposition to the masses’ willing. Or in other word, it is necessary for historic stream to die out the genres, proved its assertion of poet and writing manner hadn’t been accepted by the majority and society. Even though it became popular for a short while, its life would not be long.

Whatever we say, “ the fittest survive, the inverse die” is everything’s development law.

Moreover, genres make nothing but to develop better the Chinese new poetry ,it can raise variety of banners, only by rooting itself in the traditional poetry of China, and taking the public consciousness as its own criteria, and having its imagination power and foreseeability, to lead and stimulate the creation, otherwise, it could be a flash in the pan.

■峭 岩： 你说的流派，和一种新的诗风产生，整体上，我是这么认为的 ，历史一再说明，一个新的流派产生并站稳历史舞台，它必须有一个丰沛的社会支撑，与社会主流思想承认有很大关系。新诗诞生以来，产生了许多流派，尝试派、人生派、七月派、朦胧派、现实主义诗派、现代诗派、垃圾派等等 。它们分别代表了一个时期内的诗歌状态和诗歌走向 。随着历史的潮流一个个不复存在 。可以说，流派有时代性或阶段性，诸如历史上的“七月诗派”，是二十世纪三四十年代，围绕着胡风主编的《七月》《希望》杂志的一批诗人与作家，如绿原、阿垅、曾卓、牛汉等，形成了一个贯穿抗日战争和解放战争时期最重要的现实主义诗歌流派。在那个年代，“七月诗派”为当时的战争提供了得力的精神支援，在以后很长的一段时间里，他们中的代表人物也是中国诗歌的代表。随着国家任务的转移，“七月诗派”也随之隐去，但他们的个别人，他们的诗歌主张和精神依然存在，只是被另一代人所传承。

今天的诗歌流派与过去稍有不同，在不满意现状的心态下，纷纷打出各自的旗帜，什么“梨花体”“羊羔体”“非非主义”等等，所谓的“下半身写作”就更不用说了。诗坛的流派“你方唱罢我登场 ”、走马灯式的表演 ，注定了它的短命 。其根本原因，是他们的主张和表达的内容有悖于大众的意志 。或者说，流派消退，是历史潮流的必然，证明它主张的诗歌精神、书写方式没有被大多数人接受，没有得到社会的支持。尽管这个流派当时火了一下，生命力并不长远，应该从本身寻找原因。

但不管怎么说，“适者生，逆者亡”，是一切事物的发展规律。

进一步论，流派无非是想把中国诗歌的事情办好，打出各种各样的旗帜 ，但是它必须扎根于中国传统诗歌的基础之上 ，以公共意识为准绳，又有超时代的想象力和预见性，才能引领和激发创新力，否则：只是昙花一现。

ZWZ: Genres can almost not to see in everywhere, that’s to say, one purely and narrow defined assertion of poet has been invisible. Such sign itself show that, Chinese new poetry is developing toward a open and contained orientation. But from the view of the Journal Poetry, it seems to have present a certain orientation of still being disputable for its published works of poem and poet as such—— “controversial “ is a valuable quality, it may demonstrate that there existed any creation in some works, or there just existed some quality of breaking out of the tradition,what do you think of this quality?

■章闻哲：流派在今日已然无迹可寻了，就是说一种单纯的、狭小定义中的诗歌主张已然不可见了，这种迹象本身表明，诗歌在朝着一种开阔、包容的方向发展。但是，从一些诗刊的一种导向来看，它所推出的诗人或诗歌作品，依然具有一种“争议性”——“争议性”是一种很可贵的品质，说明有些作品存在创新，或突破传统的质地，您认为这种质地是什么？

Qiaoyan: as regard to the emergence of “controversial works”, there are two kind of situations deserve to be attentioned: one is to take it(work) as the typical case to call on others to imitate, this may be considered as the kindness of editor; the other is to say, those disordered poems that shouldn’t be edited or selected by some editors who limited by his own cognition level. But in fact, both of the two situations do not come to the good end, it may had got a oppsite state. The excellent editors, need to be intelligent, and to see the world with a unique way, to find the peculiar flower that is outstanding in the disorderly field. As I know its been better done in the field of novels.

For example, there is such a poem titled with Train Is Passing By the Yellow Liver:when the train are passing by the yellow liver/I am just passing water in the bathroom/I know I shouldn’t be here/ I should sit beside the window/or stand by a door of the train/ with my left hand on my hip/and my right hand above my eyebrow like a eave/ to look into the distance/ like a great man/or at least like a poet/ to think about things on the liver/or the old account of the history/ peoples are all overlooking at this time/ and I just in the bathroom however/time is too long/ but now the time belongs to me/I have waited it for a day and a night/but yellow liver has gone further/ just in an interval for a pee.

It caused considerable controversies as soon as the poem present above be published. Somebody said that it revealed just necessarily the “thoughts of the system”which has lasted for a long time, it’s the consequence of the unified culture. There are debates between the negation and assertion. I thought that the author despite the poem too much, he just peed on the poem. Not to mention to pee on the yellow live, the later behavior even desecrated the old civilization, I am not saying that we can not write the case of peeing as well as the sex , but saying that we should write such motives or factors with sense of beauty. Maybe someone will suppose that, from the traditional mode of great motives to the common aspects of life, there need only single creation . this really underestimate the poem’s function.

All arts need to innovate, no creations, no survives. Creation should follow the step of thoughts route of the nation, and to create in the flame of the poetic esthetic, the mass being intelligent wouldn’t accept it , if it doesn’t take a correct rode, and to please the public with the vulgar things only.

If we want to admit some works with controversy , then to respect the reader, we editors can give a prompt in notes for public debates.

What is behind the controversy? I considered that the essence of controversy is the definition of the poem. What is the poem?what is the good poem? It’s clear in a lot of poets’ heart, this part of poets for a long time have been stuck to the sacred position of poem, and at the same time they just wrote out the great poems that being severely responsible for this sacred reputation.

However, the poem underwent the boom period, misty poetic time, writing on the sense of experiment, in addition to nowadays ‘ materialization, some poets then lost their original spirit under various impacts, some of which just went into the entrance of poetry with desire to achieve quick success and getting instant benefits, proclaimed themselves “the famous” made themselves restricted in a designated area . some critics in the circle of out poetry echoed blankly, confused the poetic circles. Young poets got undoubtedly bad impacts from this chaos.

■峭 岩：对有“争议性”作品的出现 ，其作品发表有两种可能值得注意：一是选编者的善意，作为“典型”提醒，企图号召和效法。二是编选者水平受限，把不应编发的乱诗也发了。但是，从实际效果来看，两种用意都没有好的结果，适得其反。优秀的编选者，必须是智慧者，他独具眼光，在芜杂的田野里，发现“出类拔萃”的奇葩才行。这在小说界有很多榜样的例子。

比如《车过黄河》：“列车正经过黄河/我正在厕所小便/我深知这不该/我应该坐在窗前/或站在车门旁边 /左手叉腰/右手做眉檐/眺望/像个伟人/至少像个诗人/ 想点河上的事情 /或历史的陈账/那时人们都在眺望/我在厕所里/时间很长/现在这时间属于我/我等了一天一夜/只一泡尿功夫/黄河已经流远。”

此诗一出，众说纷纭，有的说，是长期以来“体制思维”的必然暴露 ，是“一统文化”的结果。肯定与否定莫衷一是。我认为作者太轻视诗歌了，他是在诗歌上撒了一泡尿。不要说在黄河上撒尿 ，亵渎了古老的文明，不是说撒尿不能写，正如性不是不能写，而是写出美感来。也许有人这么认为 ，从大主题的传统模式走下来，进入一种普遍的生活层面 ，有一种创新就可以了。这是低估了诗歌功能的高下。

一切艺术都需要创新，没有创新就面临死亡 。创新应该跟上国家的思路，要在诗歌美学的框架下创新 ，不走正路，靠一些低俗的玩艺儿取悦大众，有知识的大众也不会买账。

若承认“争议性”作品的出现，不妨，变换一个方法，那就是在编者按语里提示，请大家辩论，这也是尊重读者的一种好办法 。

“争议”背后是什么？ 我认为“争议”的本质是对诗歌的定位问题，什么是诗？什么是好诗？在很多诗人的心里是明白的 ，这一部分人很长的时间内坚守诗歌的神圣地位，也写出了不愧诗歌圣名的诗歌 。只是诗歌经历了热潮时代、朦胧诗时代、实验写作时代，加之今天的物质化时代 ，某些诗人受到社会潮流的影响 ，丧失了精神坚守 ，还有一些初入诗歌门槛儿的人，急功近利 ，自我封号 “著名”，画地为牢 。还有圈内的评论家，随声附和 ，搅乱了诗坛。不谙世事的青年诗人，身受其害。

ZWZ: what poems should young people write? How would you suppose it?

■章闻哲:您认为青年应该写怎样的诗？

Qiaoyan: it’s a good phenomenon for young people to write poem, they are bursting with vitality, youthful, coupled with poem, get more additional value. From the point of view of the integral current manifestation, young poets have their keen eyes, and the desire of pursuing success. They are fearless, but to them, to write out works with massive and profound quality is also difficult.

The poetry is an underlined artistry,and ideological level discipline, if do not comprehend and learn it deeply, that can be considered as the youths’ absent from this subject, they need to catch up the class. For example, who is poet? What is the poem?these most basic common sense need to learn. Someone just think that , poem is only of breaking sentences on to lines, it so simplified the poem. This is a very misunderstanding to poetry under the bad poems ‘ impacts.

This happened at the start of new poetry, as Mr Xie Mian said, there is a hidden trouble hided in the birth of the new poetry, in short, it derived from the ignorance of the speciality of literary style, even disregard the style. Whatever “I write what I said”, or “create poem as well as to create article”, there are misleading components , even though they had their special background of time. Let the poem give up its superstition of vernacular language, back to the poem as such. In fact , there is predecessor that warned ever early in the “Five Four”, do not forget the poem for vernacular movement, do not forget the poem on account of “new”. but poem was forgot at last among quite a few poets.

Who is the poet? Someone said that ,” he is a explorer of intelligence and light of national language, is a guard for defending the spirit and feeling. The poet should have his independent consciousness and character, is the most precious mental factor of nation. At the same time , the poet is a singer and a scared person, he should lead and present the soul and character of time; the poet should also keep a posture of personality with traits of independent, freedom, and natural being responsible.

What is the poem? Poem is the presentation of high degree language art, it existed independently by distinguishing any other art form, poem is the other arbor on the ground, as I ever said. She exists freely from vulgarity. She is the rare tree in the forest of art, outstanding among other forms and appears high and steep. She is the pouring out of intelligence, fully with creation , leap, aesthetic and sacred.

Nowadays young poets have three weaknesses: lack of milk, means lack of nourishes of traditional poetry, lack of practicing of mother language which is our root. Lack of Calcium, so to say, lack of life’s accumulation, lack of the effects of smoky fire of our world. Lack of the iron, namely the feeling of justice for nation and home, the mentality of saluting the kindness and the future.

With one utterance, when confirmed the three views which refer to the world view, the life view, and the price view, deeply go into the life, to grasp the practiced poetic skill, so to write out the valuable , meaningful,and being artistic taste of poem.

■峭岩：青年人爱诗是一个很好的现象 ，他们朝气，青春 ，与诗结伴 ，多了一个复加值。从目前整体表现看，青年诗人有敏锐的目光，又有求胜的欲望，他们无所畏惧 ，但很难写出厚重的，有深刻思想的作品。

诗歌是一门思想性、艺术性极强的学科，缺乏了解和深学，是青年人的“缺科”，应该补课才行。比如：何谓诗人？何谓诗歌？这些最基本的常识需要学习。有些人认为，分行的文字就是诗歌。把诗歌简单化了。原因是 ，受到了一些不好诗歌的影响。还有一个对新诗的定位有误解 。

这发生在新诗诞生之初 ，用谢冕先生的话说，新诗在它诞生之初留下了“隐患 ”，简而言之，在于它对诗歌这一文体的特殊性的忽视，甚至无视 。“我写我口”也好 ，“作诗如作文”也好，这些宣导虽有其特殊的时代背景，却也有误导的成分。让诗放弃对于口语的迷信，让诗回到诗本身。其实，早在五四当年就有人警告 ，不要因为“白话”而忘记“诗”，也不要因为“新”而忘记“诗”，可是，在相当多的诗人那里，“诗”终于被忘记 。

何谓诗人？ 有人说，“他是一个民族语言的智慧与光芒的开拓者 ，精神与情怀的捍卫者 ，诗人应该具有独立的意识和精神品格，是一个民族最宝贵的精神元素 。同时，诗人是一个时代的圣者和歌者，他应该引领和呈现一个时代的精神和品格；诗人应该保持一种独立、自由、责任的精神禀赋和人格姿势 。”

何谓诗歌？诗是语言艺术的高级呈现，它区别于任何艺术而独立存在。我说诗歌是大地上另一种乔木。她脱俗而存在。它是艺术丛林中的珍稀树木，鹤立鸡群而峭峻。它是智性的倾诉，充满创新、跳跃、审美和神性 。

当代青年诗人有三缺 ：缺奶 ：传统诗歌的美学哺乳，母语的根性修炼 。缺钙 ：生活的积累，人间烟火的熏陶 。缺铁 ：正义感的家国情怀 ，向善致远的精神境界。

一句活，在三观〔世界观、人生观、价值观〕的确立下，深入生活 ，掌握娴熟的诗歌技巧 ， 方能写出有价值的、有意义的、有艺术品味的诗歌。

ZWZ: it’s too penetrating about your note for the poem! Thanks for your edification to youth. What about talking of long poem? This is just a topic that could not be avoided——in your creations, the long poem is a most important aspect. I have comprehended more or less about your creation experiences of long poem through texts. So ,at present, I think that readers would rather to recognize that, what would be the else possibility for the long poems except that traditional experiences of epic? To refer to the turning of a certain breaking out of its fence of novels, it maybe the consciousness stream, such as Ulysses; long fiction of fairy tales, such as Harry Potter. What do you think of this aspect?

■章闻哲:您关于诗的注解太精辟了！感谢您对青年诗人们的这种教诲。谈谈长诗吧，这是一个绕不过去的话题——在您的创作里，长诗是很重要的一个方面，你对长诗的相关创作经验，我多少曾通过文本了解过一些，所以，当下，我想读者可能更想了解的是，您认为长诗，除了史诗那种传统经验，还会有别的什么可能？借鉴小说的某种突围性转折，它可能是意识流，比如《尤利西斯》；比如长篇童话式小说，如《哈利波特》。您对这方面有什么畅想？

Qiaoyan: Yes, as you know, I have written 11 long poems so far. The long poem which I’m referring to , not several hundred lines but three or five thousand raw. And every poem focused on a significant case, or a representative figure of time. Such as The Gracious man; The Quiet Forest Of Silver Birch ; Poetic notes at Zunyi; The Dying Young Of Candlelight; Thousand year ‘s Kneeling Down Before You; July!July! And so on. As you have massively commented in you work The Aesthetic Study of Chinese Socialism——Volume Of Chao Yan. And Liudao also have written a monograph The Varies and Breaking Out Of Traditional Fence Of Chao Yan’s Poems. It manifested that I had been in deeply love for long poem for a long time.

In my poetic sky, have a love knot for long poem, it’s been lingering in my heart cant be vanished for long, and just like a shadow of my body. I always think that ,the long poem responsible for mission and spirit of time and problem of society, it is the image of reflexion the soul of a time, a nation, a country. It can manifest the talents of poetics drastically and thoroughly more than the short poems, therefore it brings more enjoyments on more aspects in conquering the reader.

■峭 岩：是的，正如你知道的那样，至今为止我写了11部长诗。这里所指的长诗，不是几百行而是三五千行，每一部都聚焦了一个重大事件，或一个时代的代表人物。诸如《高尚的人》《静静的白桦林》《遵义诗笔记》《烛火之殇》《跪你一千年》《七月！七月！》等。 你在《中国社会主义美学探微——峭岩卷》里，有大量的评述，为此，绿岛专门写了《峭岩长诗审美嬗变与突围》的专著。说明我钟情于长诗的创作由来已久。

在我的诗意天空中，有一个长诗“情结”，多年挥之不去，如影相随。我一直认为，长诗承载了社会问题和时代精神的使命，它是一个国家、一个民族、一个时代魂魄的形象体现。它比短诗更能淋漓尽致地、大幅度地施展诗意才华 ，因此，在征服读者上，更有多方面的精神享受。

ZWZ: to melt the history, national spirit, elite figures( heroic persons) into the poetic writing, as a great project, actually need the talents and perseverance, and as you have said that , its the moment to conquer readers maybe. In your creation of long poems , is there a certain of significant transformation in technology and thoughts?

■章闻哲：把历史、把民族精神、把精英人物（英雄人物）融入到诗写中，作为一种庞大的工程，确实需要才华与毅力，并且如您所说，这对一个诗人来说，也许正是征服读者的诗意时刻。在您的长诗创作中，有没有一种技术、思想上的重大转变？这还是一个经验上的议题。

QiaoYan: From the Bai Qiuen in The Gracious Man to Li Dazao in The Dying Young Of Candlelight, further more to The Centenary of Construction of CPC in July! July! There is a great change , that is the transition from folk songs to epics, from the frank language to the personal language, and from the ordinary images to creating artistic conception.

Mr Xian Mian have such comments for these transformation: I paid attention to the generation of Qiaoyans’, one generation of which grown from 60s’ or 70s’ , they have life practices, have passion of creation, and also have their poetic pursuing, but most of them are left behind the time, the poem of which is great, and vital, have its spirit with blood and iron, is few in nowadays. But QiaoYan is distinguished by his deepen basics , he’s been paid more attention of readers and critics. He is broad with bright eyes, and highly in poses. His language is healthy and strong. From the folk song style writing with the figure Bai Qiuen, to writing Zunyi, Li Dazao, everything under his pen is bright, vivid, inscriptional writing with blood and iron words and pose of keeling down, therefore his poem is colorful, and singing with sound.

And the birth of July! July!, can be said that ,it all entered into a new brand high stage with the new construction of which from the genre of long poem to integral deployment, the laying of detail to language, it also be my hazardous breaking out of the vital theme.

■峭 岩：从《高尚的人》写白求恩，到《烛火之殇 》写李大钊 ，再到《七月！七月！》写建党一百年，有一个大的转变，即从传统的民歌体到深情叙事上，从直白的语言到个性化的语言，从平凡的意象到幻想的造境上，都有了天壤之别。这是由时代的演进，逼迫我改变的结果。

谢冕先生对这一段转变，有这样的评价；“我留心峭岩他们这一代诗人 ，一代成长于六七十年代的人 ，他们有生活实践，有创作热情，也有诗意追求 ，但不少诗人落伍了 ，落后于这个时代，大诗歌、有生命力的诗歌、有铁血精神的诗歌不多 。峭岩备受关注，顺势而出，受到读者乃至批评家的关注，是有着深厚基础的 。他的眼光是广阔的，他的姿态是高迈的，他的语言是健硕的 。从民歌式的书写白求恩，到淋漓酣畅地写遵义、写李大钊，都是光明的、亮色的、铁血的遣词造句，以跪姿书写在碑刻上，因此，是有色彩的、有声音的歌唱 。 ”

而《七月！七月！》的诞生，可说是从长诗的体例到整体布局，从细节的铺陈到语言的营造，都进入一个全新的高度，也是我对重大题材的书写，一次冒险的突围。

ZWZ: In my opinion, Mr Xiemian is a director in literature circle with broad-mind. He encouraged a lot of young poets, and ever led a turn of poetry. This function or character, can also be seen on you. The practicing spirit for breaking out of your own creation, is really an example for youth; and being ever a director of military artistic academy, of course, had you been a role of supporter for youth. To break definitely out of the fence of tradition, make the turning come true, it is just a exploitation of ideological level, too is it a construction of the new world, among this, it is important to get dynamics, we need to get encouragements and guidance constantly, Mr Chaoyao, as a sophisticated poet in the realm of long poem where you have made a great contribution to it and work on it for years, what new proposition may you get to it?

■章闻哲：谢冕先生在我看来，是一位颇具有海纳百川胸怀的文学界导师。他鼓励了许多青年诗人，也可以说引领过诗歌的一种转折。而这种功能属性，其实在您身上也可以看出。您从自身创作中立意突围的实践精神，就是青年诗人的一种榜样；而您作为一名曾经的军艺学校的导师，当然也扮演过这种提携青年的角色。立意突围，实现转折，既是一种思想与境界的开拓，也是新世界的创建，在此当中，动力非常之重要，我们需要不断地获得鼓励，也需要不断地获得引导，作为一名在长诗领域中累年耕耘、堪称功勋卓著的老诗人，您对长诗有什么新的意见导向？

Qiaoyan: what pushed us to change ourselves? In the contemporary global context, the converging of cultures and consciousness’ between nations, the collision of cultures between nations, the paradoxes between reform and opening-up and traditions , this complex time is suggesting a certain of new pursuing to us. For the long poem writing, I think it is facing three problems, compelling us to change views and renew thoughts. One is the expectation from the need for the writing of large degree of difficult, and the press of creation factors accumulated. The time alternated new and old is the time which may generates great poet , our poets need to pursue a certain of difficult writing , for the lyricism of network times has been intervened by emotional catharsis, although the simple spirit writing do not obey the willing of aesthetics. the second is the need for confirmation of indigenous culture narrates and excavating of literature which are calling for the long poem. The long poem has its own trend of aesthetics and aura and momentum, this aura and momentum is of chinese style, his trend of aesthetics are constructed on the basis of Chinese poetry. The third is the innovation of the long poem as such , it may have been kept stable in transformation, and explored the new form of the long poem and desire of contexts. Just on the basis of these three points, the long poem must change its content about aspects of its narrating and the like, so that it can keep pace with the time, to satisfy the desire of the mass.

■峭 岩：是什么推动我们改变自己 ？在当代全球化语境里，民族之间的文化与意识的交汇，国与国之间文化的碰撞，民族内部在改革开放与传统之间的矛盾等等 ，这个复杂的时代正向我们提出一种新的诉求。就长诗的写作，我认为面临以下三个问题，逼迫我们转变观念创新思想 。一是诗歌难度写作的需求与创作元素的积累压力对长诗的期许。新旧交替的时代最能产生大诗人的时代 ，我们的诗人需要追求一种难度书写，因为单纯的灵魂性书写尽管不违背美学的意志，但网络时代文学的抒情性已然被情感宣泄所干扰混淆 。二是文学本土性文化叙述的确认和挖掘需求，对长诗的呼唤。长诗有它自身的气场审美趋向。这个气场是中国型的，他的审美趋向建立在中国诗歌的基壤上。三是长诗本身的变革，在变中站稳脚跟，开拓创新长诗的新形式与语境的需求。基于这三点，长诗必须改变它的叙事等方面的内容，方能跟进这个时代，满足大众文化的需求。

ZWZ: You invested new power into the creation of July!July!, you contributed again to the poetry your talent and deep love and friendship, added a brilliant wisp of colour to the military lyrics, with new passion and spirit of constantly studying and exploring the poetic crafts, with a certain kind of ambition for making your works being the ground breaking work for all the long poem writings with practicing and researching, can you talk about what is the significant experience in creation of such a work?

■章闻哲：您在《七月！七月！》的创作中投注了新力，您以新的激情与不懈的诗艺探研精神，在一种将之磨研为“新时代长诗写作的开山之作”的雄心中，再次为诗歌奉献了您的才华和深情厚谊，为军旅抒情增添了一抹耀眼的异彩，能谈谈您在这样一部诗的创作里的一些重要的体会？

Qiaoyan: I have said in my creation notebook, that , the old path is the old path ,while the new is magnificent. I said that ,every long poem is a talented , and therefore is a distinguished child. The July is not a politic term, but a verb among nouns. From this point of view, it is unlimited, at the same time it is limited. to limitlessness, it is a reminder of vast space of none restriction in a simple subject. To finity, it refers to thousand of varies without leaving its origin, even if the branches and pettiness, can’t leave far away of the main poetic purpose.

Its success is ascribable to the breaking out of inertia thoughts, smash the inner construction, and to stand at the high land to combine and splice again. It is so spectacular and complex, according to the main implication of poem, comprised ten chapters and preface and ending. Respectively being : The Foreword: To stand on the bank of spirit; It’s name is July; Overlook On The Boundary Of The Time And Space; Raise The Light Of The Green Field; A red Complex And Others; The Campfire Of Burning Overnight; Splendor Of The Vegetation; Wind Blowing From The Distance. Just Fly, You Chinese Eagle!; The Saint, Benefits People’s Eyes; Write to the hundredth July; The Tail song: The Light Of The Other Bank. It’s not the time stream, from the view of framework, but to take the July as a certain of momentum and aura, to implant those vital history stories onto the July’s mental aura. Maybe you could not attain the conclusion of argumentation and the attribute of judgement, but obtained the aftertastes and the imagination of contemplates.

For example, from a allover controlling of the situation, I define the July as this:” I stand on the bank of the soul/ overlooking the blood of a season/ he came from the hoofs of tribe and intersection with knives./driving the wheels of today and yesterday/ whose intestines and stomach are lactated by the season/ whom are given foods and green/ the importance is the death and the living of a season/…I mean /the legendary of a sickle/ the cutting edge of the sickle penetrated all of the irons/ in the very front of it/is an axe/ the axe is the compass of orientations/ the night which like a bedrock/ the intersection of the axe and the sickle/ combined the totem.

This defined the scenery of poem from cognition, this is the tray and background of the centenary struggling, all starting up and belonging of the sensibility.

For a simple example, His Name is July: being after the dust had settled,/ being after my contemplating for long / all days feded their colour and light/a season then jumped out/ it is quiet like the style of celestial being or a Taoist / its name called July July/ how to define you/ the July, you are not only the sign of a season/ but also a place of birth of a ghost/ at that time, the ghost of orientation broke the dawn/...I mean the July lean out of the solar terms of Chinese calendar/ obstructed in the time and space/ at that time, the July had noing to speak/ moving in the silence/ they made their nests in brambles/ scrubbing the dust on the gun and trauma secretly/ using their own bloods to feed their own bones.

Such construction, is no doubtfully opened a distinguished situation from the traditional expressions, and being the sense of a thoroughly breaking with the former. But this fission is both reasonable and artistic. Not pursuing the odd things, but the exploiting of the massive.

On the problems of creation experience, you and Wu Sijing, and ludao’s comments as specifically expounding, even more being a certain of confirmation. Mr Wu use such a passage to account for my poem: this long poem is heavy. The most of where it being sparkle with thoughts light, is his reach in the philosophic psychological implications, which melted in the image world constructed deliberately by himself. Ludao said, that , “the poet sticks to emotional catharsis with a certain of pose of kneeling down and obeisance, and always standing on the side of logos and affection, with a pose of overlooking to classify ,stir, and integrate the fragments of the reality and history. He concentrates on the keeping and content the language of poem under the pose of avant-garde, make the language’s original sense of dynamic and quality give poet freedom to exert in creation with support from a certain of formless momentum and aura and the great narrative principle and its using, and therefore complete the aesthetic totem which stepped into the epoch-making, poetic concurrently divinity. And you also have commented that :Qiao Yan ‘s long poem July!July!, is no doubt provide again a certain kind of significant reference with informative and the hints of direction for work’s value assessment. We take the Qiaoyan’s long poem as the paradigm in the military writing activities, namely the function on the basis of the strikingly historical dynamic circumstance metaphor.

■峭 岩：我在创作笔记中曾说，老路只是过去，新途光华灿烂。我说，每部长诗都是母亲血育的另一个天才的孩子而与众不同 。七月不是政治术语，它是名词中的动词。从这个意义上说，它是无限的，又是有限的。无限，是空间的广大不局限单一主题的提醒。有限，是指万卷不离其宗，就是枝枝蔓蔓、柴米油盐，也不能远离诗歌的主旨 。

它的成功在于 ，冲破惯性思维 ，打碎事件的内结构，站在高处重新组合和拼接。百年历史何其繁杂而壮阔 ，根据诗歌的要义构成了十个章节和序篇和尾歌。分别是：《序篇：站在灵魂之岸》，《它的名字叫：七月 》《站在时空边界的眺望 》《举起田野绿色的光芒 》《一枚红色情结及其它》《那簇彻夜燃烧的篝火 》《草木的光辉 》《风，从远方吹来 》《飞吧，中国之鹰 》《圣者，惠及人类的目光 》《写给第一百个七月 》《尾歌：彼岸之光 》。从架构上看 ，不是时间流 ，而是把七月作为一个气场，把那些至关重要的历史事件种植在七月的气场上，你可能从中得不到论证的结论语与判断的定语，却得到了历史回味以及沉思后的遐想。

比如从全局的把控上，我这样定义七月：“我站在灵魂之岸/眺望一个季节的血./他来自原始部落的马蹄和刀割的交错/驱动着昨天与今天的车轮/一个季节哺乳了谁的肠胃/给谁粮食和绿/重要的是一个季节的生死/……我是说/一把镰刀的传说/镰刀的锋芒穿透所有的铁/它的最前方/是一把斧头/斧头是方向的指南/如磐的夜/斧头与镰刀的交叉了/合成一个图腾。”

这就从认识上定位了一个诗意景观，这是百年奋斗吏的托盘和背景，一切情感的出发和归属。

略举《它的名字叫：七月》：“是在尘埃落定之后/在我沉思良久之后/所有的日子褪去光泽/一个季节跳出来/它静如仙风道骨/它的名字叫：七月 /七月，该怎样定义你/七月，你不单是季节的符号/是一个幽灵的诞生之地/那时，东方的一个幽灵破晓了/……我是说，七月从节气中跳出/横亘在时空里/那时，七月无语/悄然里潜行/ 他们在荆棘里做巢/偷偷擦拭枪支和伤口/用自己的血喂养自己的骨骼。”

这样的营造，别开生面。俨然与传统的表达方式，是一个彻底的决裂。然而，这种决裂是合理的又是艺术的。不是猎奇，是厚重的开拓。

在创作体会这个问题上，你和吴思敬、绿岛相关的专门论述和见解，更是一种肯定。吴思敬用了这样一段话 ：“这部长诗是厚重的 。其最具思想光芒之处，就是在他精心打造的意象世界中，所融入的丰富的哲学心理内涵 。”绿岛说；“诗人执着的以跪拜式的情感宣泄并总是站在理性与情感的天空 ，以俯瞰的姿态将现实与历史的碎片进行分类、搅拌与整合。他注重将诗歌语言设置前卫态势下的恪守与容纳的在场 ，让语言自身的动感与质感的原始属性，让诗人自由捭阖于一种被无形气场托举、运行中的宏大叙述规则与运用之中 ，继而完成一种进入划时代的、诗性与神性并举的审美图腾。”你也评说：“峭岩的这部长诗《七月！七月！》，无疑再次提供了一种重要的资料性参照与作品的价值评估向度提示。我们把峭岩的长诗系列看成军旅诗写作活动的典范，也就是基于这种突出的历史动态境喻本身的功能。”

ZWZ: Right! July! July! has a further evolution of skill than the long poems before, it also has a more proper grasp in the orientation of lyric, namely has a considering about the distance of aesthetic between the personality and correction. What about to talk of the passion of creation——it is no doubt that the long poems even much needed for the constantly passion. Whether could the passion of creation brew with a certain special form, or rather by talent?

■章闻哲: 对，《七月，七月》较之以往长诗既有技术上的进一步进化，也有在抒情向度上更适当的把握，也就是在个体与集体的情感之间有一个审美距离的斟酌。谈谈创作激情吧——长诗创作无疑更需要持续的激情。创作激情是否可以通过某种特定形式来加以酝酿？还是先天的？

Qiaoyan: this is a complicated progress to generate the passion of creation, it seems to break out momentarily, however, it happened on the basis of long accumulating. From the birth of a short poem to the birth of the long poem, there is a drastically fluctuating of the passion through over both modes of process, to admit frankly, the passion is important to the creation so greatly, someone just take it as electric light and stone spark, it is reasonable.

Literature,as a reaction of the ideology, the essential pass include the accumulation of life and thoughts. There is no rain from no wind, but the suddenly changed air temperature. We always meet such situation in the creation, a little case, a strange dream, an encounter by accident, or rather a meaningful sentence, inspired the soul, stirred like the wind rises and clouds begin to gather, couldn’t be stopped to write down it.

Just like to write Poetic Legendary Of Li Daozao, the passion was fueled by a oil lamp. The big bug, the great topic, big history, where can we to start from? It spent much of time to consider. To write him is my original willing, he must to be wrote. This is a major premise, but this precondition is only the motivation, not all of the passion. I had even been wandering near the memorial hall of Li Daozao, and his former residence, got silence before the gallows, contemplated in front of the cultural relics, until the day I stood before an oil lamp, couldn’t move, because it was a lamp which used by Li Daozao during his lifetime, the body of lamp was full with colourful rusts, the lampwick had been withered but still lighted, that light radiated from the window, illuminating the dark little courtyard.

Just at that time, my thoughts opened with a loud crash, the lamp connected with the light, with the fortune of China, again it connected with Daozao’s death at early age. It is therefore “the candle’s fire died away young” jumped out of my brain, fluctuated out the passion with flying big waves. In this marvelous passion, I find this “father” --my perspective of narration, and finally make the long poem succeeded.

■峭 岩：创作激情的产生，这是一个复杂的过程，看似瞬间爆发，其实是“厚积薄发”。从一首短诗到一部长诗的诞生，都有一个激情的涌动结果，但不可否认，“激情”对于创作多么重要。有人把它比喻“电光石火”不无道理。

文学作为意识形态的反映，生活的积累加上思考，是它的必经之路。没有凭空的雨，只有气温的骤变。创作常常遇到这样的情况，一件小事，一个奇怪的梦，一次偶然的遇见，甚或一句有意义话，激发了灵感，风起云涌地搅动起来，欲罢不能，不吐不快。

就像写李大钊诗传，激情是从一盏油灯点燃的。大人物、大主题、大历史。从何处下笔？久费思量。写他是初衷，必须要写。这是大前提。这个前提是动机，还不是激情的全部。我几次展转、徘徊于李大钊纪念馆、大钊故居，在绞刑架前沉默，在文物面前沉思。直到有一天，我站在一盏油灯前，不肯离去，那是李大钊用过的煤油灯，灯体斑驳，灯蕊枯萎，但它还依然亮着，那灯光从窗口射出，照亮窗前黑暗的小院。

就在那一刻，我的思维轰然打开，油灯与光明对接，与中国命运对接，又与大钊英年早逝对接，于是，“烛火之殇”从大脑里跳出来，涌动出涛飞浪卷的激情。在此非凡的激情里，我又找到“父亲”的叙事角度 ，终于成就了这部长诗。