35位全球顶尖摄影师这样记录中国，他们真的中立？

北京时间2月17日21-24点，“静观中国”（请见文末介绍）两位摄影师 Fred Dufour 和张立洁作客「迷路话局」，接受主持人宋宇航（财新世界说主编）及新闻媒体界朋友的采访，本篇为访谈内容整理。

嘉宾：Fred Dufour，法国籍摄影师，法新社（AFP）驻北京站摄影记者。坐标：北京。

Speaker:Fred Dufour, French photographer, and the photographer of AFP in Beijing station.

嘉宾：张立洁，摄影师。侯登科纪实摄影奖、玛格南基金会人权与报道摄影基金获得者。坐标：北京。

Speaker:lijie Zhang, photographer. Gained the honor of Hou Dengke documentary photography, and magnum foundation for human rights and photojournalism fund. living in Beijing.

主持人：宋宇航，财新世界说主编，坐标：北京。

Host:Stella，editor of Globus Caixin，living in Beijing.

以下为访谈内容：

宋宇航:

迷路的朋友们大家好，我是财新世界说的宋宇航，很荣幸今天在迷路邀请两位“静观中国”的摄影师Fred和立洁，聊一聊他们如何记录一个变化中的中国，以及他们眼中的纪实摄影。

Hi everyone, I m Stella Zhang from Caixin. I m really pleased to invite two photographers from “eyes on China” project, Fred and Lijie, to talk about how they document a changing China and how they view documentary photography.

First I want to invite Fred to introduce “eyes on China” to us. Could you please tell us something about your team and the content you are working on?

Fred Dufour :

“Eyes on China”project is a group of 35 photographers united on Instagram who publish the daily life of China. It s a fantastic way to promote ourselves,to give the chance for chinese photographers to be seen all around the world from a country where Instagram is blocked

静观中国由35位摄影师组成，是一个在Instagram上发布中国生活朝夕的项目.这是一种很好的让我们变得为人所知的方式：虽然Instagram在国内被禁止，但是中国摄影师在Instgram上发表的内容可以让全世界都看见。

And it s interesting to see China from both side:from chinese photographers and from foreign photographers.

这给我们提供一个很好的观察中国的方式：中国摄影师和外国摄影师的角度。

It s just so great to cover this country, in real time because we are everywhere now. In Chengdu, in Shanghai, in Beijing, in the west part of China, in Harbin, in Honk-Kong, and always moving in diffrent provinces.

报道这个国家很有趣，特别是我们都来自不同的地方，成都，上海，北京，西部中国，哈尔滨，香港，以及其他省份。

宋宇航:

Fred,创办“静观中国”这个项目的灵感来自于哪里呢？

What inspired you to start the project?

Fred Dufour :

The country inspired us just naturally. Because it was so different for me who was coming from Paris.

中国这个国家本身给予我们灵感，我来自巴黎，对我来说中国太不一样了。

And the best way was to use a social media : Instagram.But China is so huge…impossible to cover it alone for daily pictures

最好的表达我们的方式就是使用社交网络：Instagram。但是中国太大了…日常的照片不可能报道的了所有国内发生的事情。

So we decided to set up a group of photographers, half chinese, half foreigners… to have a neutral vision.

所以我们决定组织一个摄影师团队，一半中国人一半外国人，已得到平衡中立的视角。

宋宇航:

中国摄影师和外国摄影师一起做一个项目太赞了，有哪些互动和火花呢？

It s great to have both Chinese and foreign photographers to work together on a project. How do you interact with each other ?Any interesting stories to share during the process?

Fred Dufour :

Well, everybody is waiting or curious for the picture of the other one…

嗯，所有人都很想看到别人的照片

because the chinese will have vision different from the foreigner..: unexpected

因为中国人会看到外国人眼中不同的视角，而这些视角让中国摄影师感到惊喜和意外

宋宇航:

比如呢？有哪一次是特别让人意外的？

For example? Any case that is particularly unexpected?

Fred Dufour :

well, as foreigners have some “cliché” of China… we are expecting to see something we have in mind… and it s always a surprise to see a chinese taking pictures differently. diffrent in a good way, of course.

嗯，外国人眼中的中国时常会有带有一些固化的偏见，关于中国的陈腐思想。我们潜意识中都期待看到与自己现象中差不多的画面，然而看到中国摄影师的角度就会让我们大吃一惊，当然，对我来说这种惊喜是非常棒的

宋宇航：

比如天津爆炸，静观中国有好几名摄影师也在天津，他们镜头下的现场会很不一样吗？

During the explosion in Tianjin, severeal photographers from your project were on the site. Are their pictures different?

Fred Dufour :

well, last time, we were 3 photographers from” eyes on China” project covering the blast in Tianjin

嗯，上次我们静观中国团队里的三名摄影师在报道天津爆炸

I was shooting more as a reporter, waiting for people leaving the area, and Wu Hao, was shooting more the consequences with details of the explosion.

我是以一个记者的角度在拍摄，在等着群众撤离,吴浩则是关注爆炸细节以及其带来的后果

宋宇航：

嗯，如Fred所说，每一个事件都是多层次和丰富细节的，看到的事实，理解的角度因人而异，感受也各不相同。那请问立洁最开始是怎么加入“静观中国”的呢？

Yes, like what Fred said, everything can be viewed from multiple angels with rich details. The fact that people see, angles they think from, feelings they have are so different. So Lijie, how did you become part of the team in the first place?

张立洁：

这个项目最早是由Fred和Kevin两个人发起成立的，后来有他们认识的摄影师，也是我的朋友，邀请我加入。

This project was initially started by Kevin and Fred. a friend of mine, who they happened to know, invited me to join the project.

宋宇航：

立洁还记得在“静观中国”发的第一组照片吗？

Do you still remember the first picture you posted on the project?

张立洁：

我最开始发的是一些以前拍过的照片，这也是我们商量好的，可以让这个平台的内容更加多元，既有以往的，也有即时的内容。我发的应该是《天真者的像》的几张图。

I started with some older photos, in a bid to make this platform more diversified. the first ones were from the “Innocent”.

这组照片迷路也已经分享给大家了，这是一组我拍摄的患有自闭症的孩子们的“精神肖像”。最主要的特点就是把他们自己的画作投射到他们生活的环境之中，拍摄的他们身在其中的肖像。

These are the mental portraits of children suffering autism. They are shot in this way that the children s drawings are projected into their real-life world.

宋宇航：

当下和未来，在“静观中国”立洁有哪些有意思的计划和尝试呢？Do you have any interesting plans and attempts in the project now and in near future?

张立洁：

现在“eyes on China”project有三十多个摄影师，每天大家轮流在Instagram上发图片，和值班差不多，但是也没有什么硬性的规定。

Currently we have a team of more than 30 photographers. we post new pictures on Ins regularly. there is the number and content of your updates. it depends.

我们没有特别雄心壮志的明确目标，要成为什么，但是既然大家聚到一起了，我们也想过是不是能策划着做一些有意思的活动，比如展览、工作坊、幻灯放映等等

And it s not like we re that ambitious, trying to make a point or something. we re a bunch of photographers who enjoy doing what we do, exchanging ideas and making our works more visible. that s all.

但是因为大家都比较忙，我们成立的时间也不久，也没有人专门做这个协调组织的工作，所以基本还在积累阶段，但是最新的一个活动即将开始，就是下个周末2月26-27-28会举行系列工作坊第一期，由我和Fred来开头。

The project has been up and running for a short time and we don t have a project coordinator yet. the project is still at very early stage. but next weekend, the first session of our workshops will open, featuring Fred and me as guest speakers

我们确定的主题是“如何提升你的视觉叙事能力”，这是我们大多数人都始终在思考的一个问题，无论对于新手还是老手来说，每一个新的拍摄项目，都需要考虑，如何讲好这个故事。

The theme of the workshop will be “how to improve your ability of telling a story visually”. this has been a challenge for everyone, pro or amateur. it s always about how to tell a story right.

后面还会有第二期第三期的工作坊，都是由eyesonchinaproject的摄影师来授课

The second and third workshops will be coming soon, with lectures given by photographers from “eyes on China” project.

宋宇航：

立洁你是如何进行用镜头来讲故事的？从选题到构思再到拍摄？LIjie, in your way, what is your language to tell a story through your lens? Could you give us an example? Are there any methodology or style you prefer?

张立洁：

我这次在迷路上分享给大家的两组故事其实是分别挑选了两组完全不同的叙述方式、介入手段，但是其实又有很多相似性的选题。《天真者的像》和我拍摄的芭蕾女孩《黑暗中起舞》，他们都是身体有残缺的人，或是肢体上的或是精神上的。

如何通过镜头讲故事，其实更多的是镜头后面的头脑。前期的资料收集、构思，再到拍摄过程中的调整，都需要我随时保持头脑清醒，否则难以判断。

The two stories i ve shared through Milu were shot in two togally different but some how similar ways in terms of presentation and intervention. “the innocent” and “dancing in the dark” are both about disabled people, mentally or physically. when you try to tell a story through lens, it s the thinking behind the lens that matters. you need to a clear mind to make the right decisions during research, planning and shooting.

宋宇航：

同样的问题也想问Fred，你的镜头语言是什么，有方法论吗？

The same question for Fred. What s the language of your lens? Any methodology?

Fred Dufour :

Well, I like to give my feelings through the lens. I just want to say “forget the rules”. I like to combine details and wide pictures. It s very important to see the main subject in his environment. I always take distance with the subject for a story. And I always put someone in my picture.

我喜欢把我的感想通过镜头表达出来。我只想说，“把那些摄影规则都忘了吧”。我喜欢把细节与长宽照片结合起来。能看到环境背景中的主人公是很重要的。我喜欢在外围观察这个环境。我也喜欢总是把人放到我的镜头中。

In Harbin for example, I didnt know the city before I came. I just discover it and took pictures of every moment I like. The city and the people make Harbin… It was obvious for me to catch moments with people to tell what I see.

以哈尔滨举例。我之前并不了解这个城市，我只是来到了这个城市然后把我每一个喜欢的画面都照了出来。城市景观和人文环境造就了哈尔滨，那么对我来说，通过人物来表现城市大环境就是很明显的一种取景模式了。

I want to say : there is no methodology… only yours because you shoot with your feelings, and they are yours…For instance, I like the work of Yan Ming and the ambiance of Film director Wong Kar Wai.

我想说的是：并没有方法论。只有你自己的方法，因为你通过你的感想去捕捉镜头，而这些想法是你的且只属于你的。比如，我很喜欢严明与王家卫作品的氛围。

宋宇航：

Fred喜欢导演王家卫？和Fred的作品风格很不一样呢，他给你怎样的灵感呢？

You like Wong Kar Wai? He seems to have a different style from you. How does he inspire you?

Fred Dufour :

well, what i like with Wong Kar Wai films, it s the atmoshpere, the ambiance which keep you awake… i tried to get inspired in the walk i had in Harbin. I tried to get lost in this city to catch moments like Wong Kar Wai does. I didnt try to copy him… only to get inspired and let my feelings doing the rest.

我喜欢王家卫的一点是他作品的氛围，让人保持清醒。我试图在哈尔滨体会王家卫作品给我的启发，我尝试在城市中迷路，像王家卫一样捕捉关于这个城市的片段。我没有试着复制他的作品。我尝试被他的作品启发然后让我的想法掌控我的作品。

like how the camera moves slowly for details in his films… with different layers. I m shooting the same way on Instagram.

我喜欢他的作品中镜头对于细节的捕捉，镜头在有细节时移动的很慢，并且有不同的层次。我在Instgram上也用同样的方法拍摄。

宋宇航：

Fred的拍摄不循规蹈矩，随感觉捕捉画面、细节和层次，那在你看来什么是纪实摄影？法国的纪实摄影和中国有何不同呢？

In your view, what s documentary photography? How do you compare documentary photography in France and China? How do you see the difference or similarity?

Fred Dufour :

Well, today everybody document his life on social networks, with Weibo, Wechat.I document life of the others, that s my duty for my agency. I m like a witness and I tell what I see. t I let things happening to me. I cant staged scenes, things, or people… I just shoot and take things how it goes.: it s a question of time.

当今所有人都在用社交网络，微博微信来记录他们的生活。我纪事，记录别人的生活，这是我的工作和责任。我是一个目击者的角色，我来描述我看见了什么。我让事情来到我身边。我并不能捏造场景，人或事。我只是在拍摄，然后看事情会如何发展。要看的只是时间。

Comparing the chinese photographers and photographers from Europe for example, I would say that chinese are really passionated by photography. More than the french people. Chinese are more in the technics, guidelines, … that s why they are really good in landscape photography…. I m really bad for that I dont want to wait too much.. ahahahah

对比中国和欧洲的摄影师，我觉得中国人真的对于摄影很有热情。中国人比法国人更有热情。中国人讲究规则，方法，指导论等等，所以中国人在风景照上很出色。但我就不擅长风景，哈哈，我不想等那么久…

宋宇航：

说到社交媒体，“静观中国”没有中国的社交媒体账号，是因为不想被审查吗？以后会考虑尝试在微博微信发表吗？

Speaking of social media, ”eyes on China”are not showed on Chinese social media platforms. Is it because of the censorship issure? Will you consider using Weibo and WeChat to post your work later?

张立洁：

我们其实刚刚开设了一个新浪账户，但是因为新浪微博的更新和Instagram无法同步，所以目前我们的新浪微博非常“单薄”。

We ve recently opened an account on Weibo. however, the Instagram updates are not mirrored at Weibo yet.

Fred Dufour :

we have chosen Instagram because it was the best tool to promote our work worldwilde.

我们选择Instgram因为这是在全球用来传播我们作品最好的工具

宋宇航：

那立洁在你看来纪实摄影在当下的价值、困境与机会在哪里呢？

what do you think are the value, challenges and opportunities of documentary photography in today s society?

张立洁：

大家都习惯性的说是危机，其实我觉得机会是比以前多了的，发稿的渠道比以前多了，信息交流比以前通畅了，奖项也更多了，这些甚至完全不像危机。但是为什么又在反复提危机，可能是处于整个纸媒走下坡路的大背景。

I ve heard a lot about documentary photography is going through a crisis. the truth is, there re more opportunities than ever. more channels to get your works published, and more information, more prizes. it doesn t even look like a crisis at all. the reason that it feels like a crisis is, probably, the downward trend of print media.

但是作为个人而言，把自己武装好了，无论什么时代都还是需要小蜜蜂采蜜的，不然大家吃什么？摄影师也好，记者也好、艺术家也好，就好比小蜜蜂。

However, it s like honey can t be harvested without bees. whether you re a photographer, journalist or artist, you are that bee. so, just be prepared.

宋宇航：

的确，摄影师是手艺人，但也面临着如何经营自己的问题，你怎么看？

Yes photographers are like craftsmen. But they also face questions on promoting themselves. What do you think?

张立洁：

经营？我觉得我不算“经营”得很好的，只是凭着感觉干自己愿意干的事情。如果说理想状态，好的纪实摄影师应该勤奋，不断有好作品，这是最根本的，如果你把自己定义成“创作型”的角色的话。

I don t think I“manage／promote” myself very well. Ijust follow my heart. ideally, a good documentary photographer should be diligent and continue to deliver good works. this is essential, if you define yourself as a “creative” role.

其次，如果你还希望以此为生，那么就不能不考虑钱的问题，需要给自己打造一条既不违背良心，也能赚到钱的模式。有的人靠固定工作，比如我自己；有的人靠拍一些商业的活儿来补贴不赚钱但是自己又像干的活，无外乎这个思路。

Second, if you want to make a living through doing documentary photography, you need money to keep going. so it s important to find a way to make money while keeping a clean conscience. some have a job, like me. some take commercial assignments, to support those non-profit projects that are very interesting in nature. that s pretty much it.

还有靠拿奖项奖金、申请拍摄基金的，你都要投入精力搜索各种奖项信息、要写申请、准备作品，这些和额外做一份工也是一个道理，一样的费时费力。总之，要自己找到自己觉得ok的模式，能够不断的出好作品，这是永远不变。

Of course, there are prizes and funds. you need to spend time and efforts collecting information and filing applications. it s almost like taking another job. in brief, you need to find a way that you feel ok with to sustain your works. this is always true.

【提问】

珍妮：

你们的作品主题主要涵盖那些方向，比如政治、自然、经济等？what subjects do your work cover? Politics, economy or the nature?

Fred Dufour :

well, for AFP, i must cover all kind of work. One day can be politics, tomorrow is economy topics, after is sport.. it changes all the time… But personaly, i really like covering social events and hot news

是这样的，法新社这边呢，我必须涵盖所有的范畴。某一天可能关注政治，第二天可能是经济专题。然后是体育…总是在变化之中，但个人而言，我很喜欢社会题材和热点新闻。

小猴子 :

请问两位摄影师经常会访问哪些专业网站？请举例五个以上。

Any photography websites that Fred and Lijie may want to share with us? preferably those intended for professional protographers.

张立洁:

其实资讯最新最全的话是Facebook，当然也取决于在facebook上follow了谁，一些图片编辑、策展人，还是评论家，他们经常贴很多有意思的话题和资讯。这是我获得国外信息的主要来源之一。还有就是一些网站，我一般的做法是遇到喜欢的，就登记自己的邮箱，接受对方的新闻邮件，所以我的邮箱每天都有很多这类的邮件信息。比如这些，我截了两个屏

Facebook will be a good choice for the comprehensive, up-to-date information. it also depends on who you re following. edictors, event planners or critics. they will share interesting topics and info. fb is the main source of information for me.

About websites, I will subscribe for newletters if I find them interesting. and I ve been receiving a lot of mails from them…

Fred Dufour :

http://www.theguardian.com/inpictures
卫报的图片专栏
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/bigpicture

菠萝：

在中国，这种事件很多内容是拍不到的，记者只能拍到有限的内容或是说允许拍摄到的内容，这样是不是就不代表内容的全面和正确呢？

In China, there are many restrictions on shooting incidents like the Tianjin Blast. Reporters are only able to shoot very limited images or those are allowed to be shot. Does that mean the content they are producing is not accurate or comprehensive?

张立洁：

所谓全面和正确都是相对的，我觉得摄影师或者说记者，凭良心做就是了但是无论如何“生活都比摄影更重要！” Life is more important than photography. 这是我从一个我很敬重的老师那听来的《摄影之后》的作者 Fred Ritchin

Fred Dufour :

well, on big event like Tianjin blast, reporters can work the first 2 days… before security block the access…
After, yes the content is limited. With my experience, it s the same in Europe… where authorities block the access to journalist

在天津大爆炸这样的大事件中，记者前两天能在现场，后来保安就会来封锁。之后内容也是非常受限的。在我的经验里，这种事发生在欧洲也是一样。当局会封锁现场，不让记者进入。

宋宇航：

就算没有限制我们也很难完全呈现完整的事实，那作为记录者如何尽可能靠近真相？

Since it s pretty hard for us to present the whole story even without restrictions, how can we get closer to the truth as reporters?

Fred Dufour :

Well, it s important to get informed on what happened and not shoot without knowing anything… You cant make a beautiful picture if there is no sense with the subject. Also, we need to speak with people and compare our sources with our colleagues

在拍之前知道发生了什么很重要。如果对主题没有了解，很难拍出优美的图片。同时，我们需要和人交谈，和同事们相互比较信息源。

SURHAI :

冒昧提个问题，在国外，类似项目或组织，怎么和报纸媒体竞争，在时事报道方面，你们是独立组织还是有媒体的属性？

张立洁：

我们没有媒体属性，不对任何人和机构负责，没有挣钱压力，我们就是“兴趣小组”大家一起day day up。

Fred Dufour :

1- forget the rule of photography. You have to be yourself with your own style. In front of hundreds of freelancers, a photo editor will choose the one who is diffrent.

2- be curious, motivated and passionated.

第一，忘掉那些所谓摄影的规则。你得首先成为自己，拥有自己的风格。在成百上千的自由摄影师之中，图片编辑会选择特别的那个。第二，保持好奇，积极和热情。

张立洁：

对于自由摄影师，那就更加得勤奋了，除了和专业的不专业，全职的不全职的竞争谁的片子好，而且还要和各路图片编辑搞好关系，谁能给你活儿谁就是你的上帝[嘘]然他们随时知道你在拍什么，但是又不能招人家烦

it s even more important for freelance photographers to work hard. getting your works published depends on how good your photos are and whether you maintain a good connection with the editors. you may want to let them know what s going on, what you re shooting, but you should also be aware where the boundary is.

Ansel-刘志坚 :

静观中国这个项目主要靠什么途径获取新闻线索，你们喜欢哪类的图片？国内已经有CFP这样的新闻图片网站了，你们的报道有什么优势或者有什么不同？

张立洁：

第一，我们每个人都有各自的职业或是各自的拍摄项目，“eyes on China”就像一个兴趣小组，不是任务，所以线索来自自己原来的资源，这里没有人给分任务派指标的；第二我们这个“兴趣小组”基本都是以纪实和报道摄影师为主，当然中间很多人也有各自的其他拍摄领域，商业的、艺术的、时尚的都有；第三，我们和CFP完全不同，我们是兴趣小组，他们相当于正规国军，是要挣钱抢市场的。我们的优势就在于大家完全是“臭味相投”，没有欲望，又全是欲望.

同传翻译 Translator：

(Fred Dufour)子君，学生，纽约瓦萨学院，坐标：纽约。
(Fred Dufour)Zijun, studying in Vassar College in New York.

（张立洁）韩青，自由译者，摄影师，坐标：青岛。
(lijie Zhang) Qing Han, freelance translator, photographer, living in Qingdao.

(宋宇航）胡鑫，学生，武汉大学新闻系，坐标：武汉。
(Stella) Xin Hu, studying in Wuhan university with major of journalism, living in Wuhan.

提问共两个时间段，第一场提问15分钟，韩青负责翻译，第二场的提问翻译由胡鑫负责

文字整理：杜珂

关于“静观中国”项目／Eyesonchinaproject

由三十余位中外摄影师合作成立，是一个进行中的纪实摄影项目。于长城之内，用第一人称视角向全世界展示处于剧变中的中国。该项目在Instagram 上的账号@eyesonchinaproject

关于摄影师 Fred Dufour

法国籍摄影师，法新社（AFP）驻北京站摄影记者，Eyesonchinaproject 成员。

在法国，Fred 主要报道总统选举，F1和非洲及中东地区冲突（马里，中非，突尼斯，利比亚…）、“阿拉伯之春”等热点新闻政治和体育赛事。曾参与海地地震报道。

Fred 1999年开始在里昂一家报纸工作，主要负责文字编辑。